Classification and Fach

[Felipe Carvalho]

This is a subject that appears often and always stir the same kind of debate, so please READ this post carefuly before making a new thread on the matter.

New threads with the following subject:

"What is my vocal fach?"
"I can hit a G9 on chest voice, what is my fach?"
"I think I am a bass, can I sing jazz?"
"Is singer Joe Blow a bass or a soprano?"

Will either be closed or have their contents moved into this thread, so please exercise your reading.

Let's begin.

The fachs, with their respective most common tessituras are:

Male voices:
- Bass  - F2 - F4
- Baritone - A2 - A4
- Tenor - C3 - C5

Female voices:
- Alto - F3 - F5
- Mezzo - A3 - A5
- Soprano - C4 - C6


Now the catch to this is:

- These fachs are only relevant on the execution of classical repertoire, so for pop singing, this information is not relevant. While on classical a Bass will not perform a Tenor aria, on pop nothing prevents you from singing any song you want, even of opposite genders. If the range is too prohibitive, you can just change the key, and this is not the common case.

- Classification is done based on tessitura. I can sing a F2 in voice with no problem when using a mic, it does not mean I am a Bass. If I tried to sing a Bass Aria nobody would hear me. So, range is not relevant for classification, neither high or low;

- Because of the importance of tessitura on classification, it's necessary to receive the kind of training expected of the fachs (classical). And then, when issues with registraton and control are solved, your teacher will be able to tell you. You can classify your voice on your own by measuring the notes you sing comfortably without breaking and trying to fit it over there, but hardly it will be correct;

- If you want to know the classification of your favorite singer, the best way to do so is to go ask him, I understand there is some fun involved on finding out the highest and lowest notes of those, but as said before, range is not relevant in this matter;

- The fachs are a result of multiple factors, one of them being your physiology. Culture, personality, afinity with a certain kind of singing, and the direction taken on training can have a major influence on the outcome. So even on classical where it is really important, depending on your choices during training, fachs can vary and even change;

- A perfect example of this is the difference of execution from male to female classical voices, that can be huge on the case of a soprano compared to a baritone, there are very different uses of registration and resonance strategies;

- On that same line of thought, subclassifications are specializations, they are even more dependant on the training received. Lyric, dramatic, or coloratura loses its meaning almost completely on pop singing. So I suggest that we avoid taking a glance at a youtube video and going "definitely leggero tenor".


And once more, please DO read the whole post.

[KillerKu]

I personally disagree. I think established terms can be adapted in multiple contexts quite easily. Rather than saying 'low, medium low, medium,  medium high, high, very high,' for male and female voice types, you can pretty much just use terms that already exist in a pop setting in a loose way.

 

If you want to tell me there aren't noticeable difference between Stevie Wonder's and Isaac Haye's voice types, that couldn't be loosely classified on a pop spectrum based on strength of resonance within their range just because neither sing opera or were classically trained, I'd like to that argument.

 

The thing is, the definition of words change from cultural reference point to reference point. Trying to maintain a classical strong hold on 'owning' aspects of the english language to keep it from 'being used by the populace', seems pretty elitist and uptight, maybe even sad and defensive. Classical contexts can exist for words, without having to try to remove all other contexts from the language. These terms are in popular cultural lexicon.

 

Edit:

 

For clarity, to make this a bit more constructive toward singing, I'm not saying Isaac Hayes couldn't have learned to sing some of Stevie's notes, or should have 'given up singing' higher notes as a lower kind of guy if that was his life goal, But imo, there's no doubt he'd have to approach that issue differently because of his voice type. I honestly believe having 'that' understood amongst both the general populace and singing populace would be more useful than telling every Isaac Hayes out there he girl's songs if he just forgets about voice 'types.' If you give Isaac a starting point, he might be able to better figure out what he'd need to do to get somewhere else.

[ronaldhutasuhut]

These fachs are only relevant on the execution of classical repertoire, so for pop singing, this information is not relevant.

 

 

I think it's true. Originally, the fach system uses for operatic singer. Fach determines not only the range but the singer vocal type as well; this to help choosing singer role in an opera plot, because singer not only sing but they also act. 

 

And as for the pop singer or modern music singer, usually classified with basic term of vocal range and not determine their type, weight, color. In simple term, often these classification simply use 'high', 'low' or 'medium'. Theoretically, we use only term SATB (soprano, alto, bariton and bass). Standard choir doesn't use fach too, they only use SATB (and additional part like mezzosopran, etc.). 

 

It's like the term Diva usage. The term 'Diva' was for the Classical singer as prima donna, today, we call Beyonce as a Diva too. It's just a semantic word.

 

How to classify pop/modern vocalist by their type or color? I think it's too complicated, for modern music has a very wide range of genre and style. Jazz singer can sing Pop, Rockers can do Rap, etc. 

[KillerKu]

I still think people need a starting point, and these terms are as good as any. If you take someone with a deeper baritone ish sound color on the street and say they can sing like a girl, cause classification doesn't matter for pop singing. Anybody can sing anything in pop! What will most likely happen either he rightly doesn't trust you cause you're full of it, or he would get a false impression, try to sing like a girl around others (maybe one of the auditions on American Idol), be mocked, ridiculed and never sing again publicly or maybe even privately. Humiliated, defeated, and that's it.

 

But if you take someone with a baritone ish sound color/range and say you will NEVER be able to sing like a girl, however there are ways you might learn to sing in that 'range' or a more feminine sound color, that might sound 'good' at least to some segment of the population in which he might 'learn' that would be useful. It might also be good to tell him a girl can naturally sing in that range with significantly less effort and possibly an equal amount of popular appeal while you're working your butt off to get there.

 

I feel like that is true, it's honest, there is no magical pixie dust or snake oil being sold. There are no humiliating Idol auditions made. The guy just has a natural center of his voice which would often correlate with one of those terms. There's no harm, and basically only benefit to give someone a starting point.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Unless he was Prince.

In any event. Training is individual. Its not tenor or baritone, its Felipe or Ronald's problems and goals.

[KillerKu]

Unless he was Prince.

In any event. Training is individual. Its not tenor or baritone, its Felipe or Ronald's problems and goals.

 

Prince is highly trained on all of his various instruments so I'd imagine he's trained his voice to some extent to sing his falsetto the way he does, yet he doesn't seem to bridge much. He's cool. I sing falsetto every day and am possibly its biggest advocate here, but that's basically my point.

 

Prince and I are similar in that we can sing up there in our own ways. But it's not the same at all as a woman in that range, and not even similar to Stevie Wonder in that range. No matter what either of us do, it will never be similar because physiologically we're just different. I think respecting the physiological differences is very important and helpful for singers and the classical fachs are the closest thing to a popular lexicon way of doing this.

 

It's individual but your physiology is what it is. Trying to deny its importance, could lead to a lot of trouble.

[m.i.r.]

Felipe.....thanks for posting that. I think i just went on a rant of vocal fach the other day in a post. Basically said everything you just said, but in less detail. Well said sir..

The only thing I have to disagree with you on is how a fach can change...unless you are talking about puberty or when a male reaches the age when the folds gain more mass, if i remember right somewhere around the late 50s. Other than that I dont think fach can change. Unless you know something I dont about that. I also think it is at least nice for someone to know their fach, and learn about their breaks even outside the classical world. Plus training a bigger voice and smaller one is two different worlds. However, I suppose that would fall under view the voice as a named induvidual, that does make the most sense

But THANK YOU!!! For talking about not rushing to learn your fach, to learn at least a basic to moderte level of training before figuring it out. However, despite this long post, you are still going to get the question of what am I the moment someone sings their first note. Which, I cant blame them for wanting to know. But it still trys the patience.

[KillerKu]

Taking time and not rushing into jumping to conclusions on your voice from the first note out is one thing. Taking this to an extreme where you throw out the baby with the bathwater, and discard known reference points for how voices reside in comparison to other voices for as long as you aren't classically trained is another. 

 

I approach singing a song differently depending on where my voice 'sits' compared to other singers. It's helpful to hear these differences. It's even helpful to hear someone else, and suggest a song from time to time for them to try if it sounds like it might sit more in their area. One of the least effective things unless someone is my 'type' is to 'sing like the differences don't matter.' Try to force the voice to be something it's not.

 

And that approach is very intuitive. Normally I'm all about intuition in the arts, but attempting to force results by not considering your physiological limitations just sounds harmful.

[Jens]

Unless he was Prince.

In any event. Training is individual. Its not tenor or baritone, its Felipe or Ronald's problems and goals.

This is the thing! Well said Felipe!The problem is always our voices are extremly chaotic, and capable of millions of diffrent sounds. Putting your voice into categories made for a style of singing you dont sing is in my mind not desirable.

Why? Because it's very hard to know where our voices will takes us. Learn what limits you have now, learn what you are truly passionate about and aim for that and see where you end up.

I was called a Basso by a logopeadic that worked with singers, he was 65-70 years Old and was the best logopeadic at my university.

I was called a Baritone by my first vocal coach

I was called a Baritone by my fourth vocalcoach, She also said id never sing above G4, id get A4 if i was lucky.

I was called a Baritone but could become a low tenor by a classical coach I had.

Ive been called a tenor, ive been called a High tenor.

A musical artist said i had a countertenor voice.

In the end go for your passion, most of the time voicetypes is just mindless thinking and will be diffrent in regards to who you talk to. In the end your voice is still the same regardless if i call it basso,baritone or tenor find out what it can do, you will be suprised

Cheers

[m.i.r.]

Man I feel you on being labeled multiple things. I think knowing your "actual" fach is a hand thing that can be an asset for many purposes. However, training the voice as a name is by far the best method.

I also wanna hear all these many voices lol. I have been called many different fach classes, and trained myself for versatility, but never have i been called a bass lol.

However, i have said this many times, and will again, which is also in agreement with Felipe. Proper fach classification is crucial in the classical world, especially non amplified. I held repertoire in the wrong group at a time, and boy did i pay for it. I was miserable, and lucky i did no damage.

[Jens]

Yeah i was suprised myself, but my dialect is from the northlands so it probably makes a big diffrence,Since the dialect itself is spoken pretty deep.

Anyways, the more I train and the better i get the more i feel like fach and similar doesnt matter that much. Youll probably see tons of post from me in regards to that subject haha so try getting used to it

A funny thing is i went to a doctor, who's family had a whole line of Doctors through generations, his father had looked down in Jussi bjorlings throat.

And his folds was no diffrent than anyone elses, you could pull in an average Joe on the street and hed look the same down in the throat.

To me atleast knowing that made a huge diffrence, as then it became clear to me that it depended more on me(how, what, how much I train) then what two pieces of fold i was born with.

Cheers bro good posts

[m.i.r.]

Ha ha that is no worries man, as long as you get used to rebuttals from me popping in there from time to time. I actually do understand where you are coming from, and i actually do agree to a a point of about 93 percent ha ha. Did you see the post i did a while back where the guy replicated vocal tracks from mri, showed how little role the folds play in overall tone.

So that there should show you I do agree with you. Only thing I have to say is there are different sized and weighted folds, along with different style vocal tracks. I mean look at the slight differences there are between male and female tracks, yet the monstrous tone difference.

Yes i agree, so many changes can be made to change timber, weight, ect ect. Yet I believe there is a certain point where you just reach a physical limit of what you can do, where another may not. That is the 7 percent we disgree on ha ha.

That is why i will hold true on the point that fach is critical in classical un amplified situations. I can sing bass lines, but ask me to project that through even one instrument lol, much less 30.

I think when you push your instrument to the max like that, you lose that freedom to do what you want. You are limited by more physical attributes, than mental. That is why all opera singers "sound the same" to alot of people. Because they are doing what is physically needed to make the needed volume and frequency required. My experience in the wrong fach at one point speaks to this as well. However, miced, i can sing bass, baritone, tenor, even countertenor parts(not all of them of course, but you get my drift.)

This is why classical music will always be dear to me, and hold a place in my heart. But contemporary music is my love, so much more freedom for creativity.

Also looking down jussi's throat, that is pretty awesome. He is where I got alot of influence on support. "Only need an ounce of air" "need no more air than that of a casual conversation" ect...

One little food for thought that helps jens side. Pavarotti said in an interview he always spoke light like a tenor since he was young, because he always wanted to be one. If he didnt do this and wanted to be a baritone.....would the famous Pavarotti have sung nessun dorma 3 steps down????? Dun dun dun lol

[Jens]

Totaly agree, good post is there anywhere i can hear you sing? Would be cool to hear

[KillerKu]

It seems like I hear this from singers on the other side of the rainbow. I started off like X, then my technique improved 10 years later, then this change, then this change.' And now I've got 5000 notes so everyone who ever helped me get here was wrong! Now that I'm the raddest singer, isn't everyone else an idiot?

 

But if you are starting with a relatively inexperienced singer and they start trying to slam soprano notes or bass notes that are strained and hoarse and can't even stay in tune on a conversational pitch? You don't think guiding someone to what might be a comfortable or more intuitive area in an untrained voice, and listening carefully to their timbre and where their voice falls as valuable tool? You can call whatever region a singer is comfortably phonating successfully 'something' and help them find other singers who comfortably phonate there.

 

You ever think maybe your voice survived because people helped guide you towards the areas of your voice that were comfortable when that was necessary rather than have you run off into the wilderness and squeal like a banshee and make thumping noises that Barry White would envy?

 

I'd be wiling to bet a lot of people helped you along the way. And I'd be willing to bet gaining experience in wherever your modal voice naturally falls comfortably has been a really helpful step for 99 percent of singers classical or not. I sometimes wonder if singers even remember the moments when they sang for literally the first time? Having signposts in that wilderness can be helpful even if they might move in people's lives.

 

A good deal of people's instincts will be to simply force it. Others are terrified and could use guidance and help getting into a singing ish voice in the first place. Saying right now, you seem comfortable in X area, (which people usually input a classical ish fachish thing) here are some great singers you can check out who also seem comfortable in this similar X area of their voices, that you can get inspiration from during this current location in your singing journey is really, really helpful for singers. Telling people "I have 5000 notes" fach doesn't matter, it just doesn't help. It might boost egos. But I remember when I started my singing journey, every singer I could sing along to, was a blessing. Knowing which ones were 'closer' to me was enormously helpful and loose fach was how I found out. I really appreciated that people would point out singers that were more accessible to me.

[JohnnyL]

If classical terms are not relevant to today's singers - I wonder if there could or should be an alternative system of classification for beginning singers.

 

For example - there are different methods that singers use to hit high notes and arguably, with enough practice, one can master most of them. However, is there a way to identify the path of least resistance for each individual?

 

 

I can see the shortcomings of such a method - might be discouraging and it will always be too general, however, it might help with specialiaztion, selecting songs to cover, etc...

Just thinking out loud here...

[KillerKu]

If classical terms are not relevant to today's singers - I wonder if there could or should be an alternative system of classification for beginning singers.

 

For example - there are different methods that singers use to hit high notes and arguably, with enough practice, one can master most of them. However, is there a way to identify the path of least resistance for each individual?

 

 

I can see the shortcomings of such a method - might be discouraging and it will always be too general, however, it might help with specialiaztion, selecting songs to cover, etc...

Just thinking out loud here...

 

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. As a beginner, the primary way I found singers I could sing with was by searching for 'popular baritones.' I now sing along with tenors, and contraltos with my 'own style' which is whatever it is (I don't care for a label, I think a lot of things above Bb4 are some kind of falsetto although i could push for more if I cared). But that's because I trained enough to find my 'own way.' But in the meantime, what was I supposed to do? I couldn't even hit an E4 without straining. Yeah, some people get lessons, some people can't afford them or have terrible coaches nearby. Or maybe no coaches are interested in developing their styles. Or maybe they just want to develop their own comfortable style.

 

But singing should be for everyone. Not for 5000 note people. Knowing who was 'closer to me' helped me lower the key of songs. And I still, personally listen to people's weight and change things to suit my style. And whenever I hear another singer, I listen and think of songs they might be comfortable with. It's not a judgement or a damnation to 'fach eternity in hell', it's an affirmation of the joy they are currently having with their voice. They want to sing now. They want to have meaningful experiences now. 90 percent will not end up with 6 octaves. If you count my whistle I have maybe 4 now of 'whatever' it is I do. But I wouldn't have any of it, if I didn't have similar singers to sing passionately along to. I would have stopped singing at 1.5 octaves. I'd be thinking singing wasn't for people like me.

 

Fach is all we got in popular culture. This is a big influential forum. I have a lot of respect for it. I feel like I've learned a lot here. I have respect for the intelligence, I got respect for Robert, what he does. The moderation, the skills, information, everything. But this forum doesn't have enough social influence to make huge waves, to the point where you could replace a google search for 'popular baritones' that would be replicated by whatever term you make up: "medium voiced heavies, not yet tenors, not yet sopranos, could sing like a girl if he really wanted to' you want to replace it with. And beginners don't here wouldn't get to sing as easily if they are taught these incredibly popular and familiar words become dirty words that are off limits.

[Jens]

It seems like I hear this from singers on the other side of the rainbow. I started off like X, then my technique improved 10 years later, then this change, then this change.' And now I've got 5000 notes so everyone who ever helped me get here was wrong! Now that I'm the raddest singer, isn't everyone else an idiot?

But if you are starting with a relatively inexperienced singer and they start trying to slam soprano notes or bass notes that are strained and hoarse and can't even stay in tune on a conversational pitch? You don't think guiding someone to what might be a comfortable or more intuitive area in an untrained voice, and listening carefully to their timbre and where their voice falls as valuable tool? You can call whatever region a singer is comfortably phonating successfully 'something' and help them find other singers who comfortably phonate there.

You ever think maybe your voice survived because people helped guide you towards the areas of your voice that were comfortable when that was necessary rather than have you run off into the wilderness and squeal like a banshee and make thumping noises that Barry White would envy?

I'd be wiling to bet a lot of people helped you along the way. And I'd be willing to bet gaining experience in wherever your modal voice naturally falls comfortably has been a really helpful step for 99 percent of singers classical or not. I sometimes wonder if singers even the moments when they sang for literally the first time? Having signposts in that wilderness can be helpful even if they might move in people's lives.

A good deal of people's instincts will be to simply force it. Others are terrified and could use guidance and help getting into a singing ish voice in the first place. Saying right now, you seem comfortable in X range, (which is usually a classical fach) here are some great singers you can enjoy and get inspiration from during the current place in your singing journey is really, really helpful for singers. Telling people you have 5000 notes, so it doesn't matter, really isn't.

Ive never said they didn't help me, but I cant for my life understand why they put an completly untrained singer in a fach.

Isnt that spitting true Baritones in the face?That actualy spent 10 years singing arias and doing technique to call themselves Baritones.

Ofc you need to train a singer from the basics, that doesnt change but to put a Guy that hasnt even learned to sing above the passagio in a fach is to me ludacris.

One of my favourite operatic singers is a baritone, Peter Mattei check him out cool singer.

And no my voice has never been anything like his, I wish however

If you read online fach is also some kindo of weird vocal identity, everyone wants to be sorted by the sorting hat(please god let me be in gryffindor,dramatic tenor).

What is my voice like? What will i be able to do? Ohh Im a tenor so Im the same as pavarotti cool!

I searched with light and Torch for guys who could teach me to sing the way I wanted, eventualy I found guys that said "ofc you can learn to do that just do X" I did X and lo and behold i got almost everything i wanted. Thats the reason Im on this board alot of the guys has helped me.

Robert Lunte

Martin H

Felipe Carvalho

Daniel formica

All great guys,great coaches and singers.

I have a friend who was trained as a basso in musical theatre for 2 years, the Only problem is there is no Work in musical for basso except for ensamble if your lucky.

He trained James lugos(moderator on this boards program for 4 months) then got hired as a tenor. Does this mean he magicly switched fach? Probably not, although he felt like he had "cheated" into becoming a diffrent voice just because he identified so much with the lowervoice.

[JohnnyL]

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. As a beginner, the primary way I found singers I could sing with was by searching for 'popular baritones.' I now sing along with tenors, and contraltos with my 'own style' which is whatever it is (I don't care for a label, I think a lot of things above Bb4 are some kind of falsetto although i could push for more if I cared). But that's because I trained enough to find my 'own way.' But in the meantime, what was I supposed to do? I couldn't even hit an E4 without straining. Yeah, some people get lessons, some people can't afford them or have terrible coaches nearby. Or maybe no coaches are interested in developing their style.

 

But singing should be for everyone. Not for 5000 note people. Knowing who was 'closer to me' helped me lower the key of songs. And I still, personally listen to people's weight and change things to suit my style. And whenever I hear another singer, I listen and think of songs they might be comfortable with. It's not a judgement or a damnation, it's an affirmation of the joy they are currently having with their voice. They want to sing now. They want to have meaningful experiences now. 90 percent will not end up with 6 octaves. If you count my whistle I have maybe 4 now of 'whatever' it is I do. But I wouldn't have any of it, if I didn't have similar singers to sing passionately along to. I would have stopped singing at 1.5 octaves.

 

Fach is all we got in popular culture. This is a big influential forum. I have a lot of respect for it. I feel like I've learned a lot here. I have respect for the intelligence, the moderation, and the singers.  But you dont' have enough social influence to make huge waves, to the point where you could replace a google search for 'popular baritones' by replacing that term with whatever you make up "medium voiced heavies, not yet tenors, not yet sopranos.' you want to replace it with.

 

Exactly!

 

Searching for baritones didn't help me a lot, as when I was starting out (not that long ago) I found out that most of them strech their chest voice to places I can't go yet. I sometimes feel more comfortable using falsetto while listenning to tenors, even if I sound much thinner than they do.

[KillerKu]

Exactly!

 

Searching for baritones didn't help me a lot, as when I was starting out (not that long ago) I found out that most of them strech their chest voice to places I can't go yet. I sometimes feel more comfortable using falsetto while listenning to tenors, even if I sound much thinner than they do.

 

Falsetto is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Baritones will help you out when you get closer to either training your chest higher or doing a lighter but fuller sound (everyone has different names for it), mix, belt, 'thick head' whatever.

 

I agree those first steps as a singer, a lot of pop baritones can really stretch. Some of them were too much for me. Feel free to get technical help along the way. But you gotta sing now. You feel the passion. You'll get there. That's it for me. That's pretty much why I come here. So much passion, so many people learning to sing. Everyone's in a different place. But it's you guys that are trying to turn that passion into a singing voice that excite me most.

[Jens]

Falsetto is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Baritones will help you out when you get closer to either training your chest higher or doing a lighter but fuller sound (everyone has different names for it), mix, belt, 'thick head' whatever.

 

I agree those first steps as a singer, a lot of pop baritones can really stretch. Some of them were too much for me. Feel free to get technical help along the way. But you gotta sing now. You feel the passion. You'll get there. That's it for me. That's pretty much why I come here. So much passion, so many people learning to sing. Everyone's in a different place. But it's you guys that are trying to turn that passion into a singing voice that excite me most.

Well said, falsetto is awesome

[m.i.r.]

Oh geez, so many things have been said. If i started rambling on about everything i would run out of battery before I stopped. So let me be as short as possible.

Falsetto is awesome, an amazing training tool. Also for cool stylistic effect.

I never said training is useless, or that the stepping stones I had getting to where I am at are idiots. Though some were, I still learned something, even if it was a hard lesson. I dont regret any mistakes I make as long as I learned from it and corrected the mistake itself. (There are a few exceptions to this)

I whole heartedly agree sticking untrained singers in a fach is moronic, nothing will convince me otherwise. Yourgood teacher will basically train someone as a boy or girl. See where they are at, where they are comfortable and build on that. Not get 3 notes from them, and throw em on the tenor or mezzo front lines. That is irresponsible and moronic, and can hurt someone or end their careers. Just look through the last 75 years of singers that either had bad teachers. Or worse, bad advisors who tell them to take roles to dramatic for them. I can list 10 without even having to think, either ended their up and coming stardom, or ended their already successful career.

Talking about listening to people who sound like you, yes that is awesome!!! However, there needs to be an adjustment to that. It should be listen to someone that sounds like you right now. A teacher takes on a complete rookie with a 1 octave range. The good teacher starts with the one octave range, builds on it. Says go listen to so in so who sings for say c3-c4. Gives this person some experience singing, and helps build his/her confidence knowing someone else is out there like you. Then years down the line, that good teacher is saying go listen to this singer whom makes sweeping 3 octave leaps back and forth ect. Hell I still do that. If i want to work on high and light, I will get warmed up by listening to jeff buckley or (dont hate) adam lambert. If i want to sing 80s metal then listen to that to warm up, or opera ect you get the point.

I also dont feel many people on this board have forgotten where they came from. I am sure there are a couple that popped out the womb with a 5 octave range belting like a natural. However, alot of people here I am sure remember the crapiness of praying to be able to sing past a d or e4 full voice or even at all. I know i sure as hell do, and I will never forget either. That is one reason I try so hard to give as good of answers as possible. I had soooo many un answered questions that no one would or could answer, and felt lost. And that was from someone whom already had established a successful career in the instrumental field. I can only imagine someone who had no musical experience, completely lost.

I also know I have only had one good teacher in my life that actually cared about me personally. It was so sad when he went back on the road, I only got to work with him for a month, 2 days a week, I loved every second of it. all the other teachers at university or off, didnt care how I made the sounds, long as it happened. Who cares if his entire body is stiff and locked out, hes got the right format and is loud enough. Setting himself up for vocal health issue, nodes or even a fissure? Whatevs.. That is why I have been hunting for another teacher again, trying to relive that month again, but this time hopefully longer, there is always still so much to learn 24/7.

My whole point is not to bash all the bad teachers, which there are tons!! Is to say its all the contributors jobs on this board to help kill bad info, and bad training. Just remember one of those humps you over came, what got you over that hump, teacher, friend, research or whatever. Imagine if that extra 5 mins you spend typing a response could trigger a break through for someone lost.

And i think there are so many talented people that have stayed grounded on this board like that. It is one thing that makes it special, also it makes the statement of so many people who forgot where they came from not very accurate, at least for here. Oh and yes, I know there are alot of good teachers too, I wasnt targeting them.

Wow that got deep, sorry lol. I was watching that movie in the back ground with will smith where he was homeless with his kid, then finally got that job. Guess it got me all motivated ha ha.

[JohnnyL]

Fach is all we got in popular culture. This is a big influential forum. I have a lot of respect for it. I feel like I've learned a lot here. I have respect for the intelligence, I got respect for Robert, what he does. The moderation, the skills, information, everything. But this forum doesn't have enough social influence to make huge waves, to the point where you could replace a google search for 'popular baritones' that would be replicated by whatever term you make up: "medium voiced heavies, not yet tenors, not yet sopranos, could sing like a girl if he really wanted to' you want to replace it with. And beginners don't here wouldn't get to sing as easily if they are taught these incredibly popular and familiar words become dirty words that are off limits.

 

With this I don't entirely agree - no need to stick to the past if it doesn't work anymore.

 

I believe that if this issue would be covered with a thorough discussion with enough participants it could become a useful tool. Widespread or not...

[m.i.r.]

Totaly agree, good post is there anywhere i can hear you sing? Would be cool to hear

Yep forget this in that long ass post lol. Yes I sure do, I believe I already have a few clips on the site now, crappy cell phone stuff though. However, i will be posting some older stuff up in about 2 to 4 days. Actually been setting up my new studio so still have all my storage units and what not disconnected right now. But will be done by this weekend, its my christmas present to myself lol.

So will post up some past somewhat professional stuff of myself then when I get all my stuff reconnected by this weekend hopefully sooner. Actually had a few cool things on my sd card, one thing that was the last copy I had. My lovely wife decided to jack my sd card because she filled hers up with 5 gigs of crap. "Just to take some pics" she says. She forgets to return it, a week later my 2 year old chunks the phone out of the shopping cart. Someone steals it before she realizes it, that was lovely.

Also this next couple weeks going to be testing out and getting to know all the new studio stuff, instruments, building, ect. Going to be doing this by doing prob 5 covers, cover all instruments and vocals. Will post those up as well when completed. My new years resolution is to get back into music full time again, between teaching, really pushing session work, soundtrack, ect, anything and everything lol. Also really wanna build a new baby again(personal project), have like 15 back logged songs that have been gathering dust for the last couple years. So I have made up my mind, this is the year.

Damn, i am long winded tonight, I apologize lol....done

[KillerKu]

Thanks guys. Sometimes the climate seems like people are being pressured away from their comfortable ranges with so much focus on high notes, huge ranges, and all that stuff. Whenever I've posted here I've tried to create a counterpoint and I apologize if it was a little accusational.

 

I do agree 'imprisoning' someone into a fach is terrible. If there are still modern day pop teachers who do that, they are incorrect. We do agree on this. I'm not a vocal expert on the level of you all, but even i can verify from my own voice, this is really stupid. Only you can know your voice at the end of the day and what you can do with it fluctuates drastically based on culture, training, experience, and intent as well as physiological factors.

 

I suppose if you would like to try to create a 'comfortable vocal range' category of singers, that would be a very powerful tool at least for this forum. So I will definitely concede, if you can succeed at this goal, you might be able to circumvent fach imprisonment, by taking the good (easy way for people to passionately sing songs in their comfortable ranges) while leaving the bad, the idea of 'imprisonment.' I personally feel like these words are too imbedded into the language, to  simply say they are 'irrelevant' without a counterweight.

 

If the sole focus is to take people out of 'prison.' I support this goal fully and withdraw my impressions of skepticism. But if you're going to make them irrelevant, consider replacing them with something else: a database of singers/songs who have been known to sing comfortably in certain ranges for people to update and peruse. That may be able to work. Might not impact the broader culture, but would prevent damage of taking shaming away this resource.

[KillerKu]

With this I don't entirely agree - no need to stick to the past if it doesn't work anymore.

 

I believe that if this issue would be covered with a thorough discussion with enough participants it could become a useful tool. Widespread or not...

 

 

I can agree you might be able to create a positive climate and useful tool on this forum. Merely removing these without replacing these concepts with something more useful wouldn't suffice, however. That's probably why I reacted so strongly, but I do think you strike a very good compromise between my initial impressions and the stated topic.

 

So I apologize if my speech was a bit fiery. I'm very passionate about this subject, but JohnnyL is a level headed fellow. I'd still encourage you to google baritones when you're ready though.