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Felipe Carvalho

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Hey I totally agree with you killer. Creating a comfortable zone to start in. I think just starting at your talking zone and slowly expanding out is a great start. Everyone talks in different pitches, so maybe you could have the low medium and high talkers ha ha, start there. But everyone wants to go for the money notes, hell so did I when I was starting out. If i could go back in time, I would have slowly worked my way up and down. Prob would have found balance quicker, I would almost bet on that.

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@killer

The main objective here is to concentrate the postings regarding fachs, and in special avoid infinite interactions of this exact same debate, also keeping all the info it produces in the same place.

What I wrote up there, was not with the objective of "restricting" the use of the terms, as I said, everyone is free to pick an instrument and try to find out. But the rest of what I said, in special on the importance of training in order to do a correct classification, is correct, and if you really stop to think about it, kinda common sense.

About "what terms to use". The very idea of finding out if you are "light, medium light, brown or sweet" is the problem, not the term. You could call it it gelatto and it would still be problematic to try to stick a voice that is not well coordinated to a "type", when all you have at that moment is pretty much just "individualities". Classification is done on subjective qualities, there is no definitive measure to use.

But ok, let's do a mental exercise and say that we have the new user "MediumDude" and we are 100% sure he is a baritone. Thinking of repertoire choices, here are a few "pop culture" baritones:

Vinne Valo

James Hetfield

Freddie Mercury

David Coverdale

Prince

David Bowie

Zak Stevens

Geoff Tate

There is no guarantee that "MediumDude" will have an easy time performing songs from all these gentleman, or any of them for that matter. The singing, the execution, is very different from one to the other. So what does it matter to be a baritone or not, if we will still have to treat it individually and per song? What if there is this cool song the guy can sing, that was done by a girl, and with a few adjustments it will work well?

For example, I began studying technique on one song from David Coverdale and one from Ana Carolina (a brazilian pop singer). Note: not all songs from David Coverdale, and not all songs from Ana Carolina. It had nothing to do with fachs, simply was something that on my voice would be relatively simple to get to work well based on MY case. I sound, and sounded back then, different than both of these singers.

The problems that will appear along the way will not depend on the classification. And even on more extreme cases of really different voices, what prevents a girl from recoring Old Man River on a different arrangement and sounding good?

Classifications only become relevant when there is a specific character you want for the voice, when we sing most of the pop stuff, the characters are ourselves. Unless of course in the specific case of theatre, but then also the requirements are more in regards of being capable to produce a certain quality, such as belting. Martin would be more qualified to speak of this.

@m.i.r well there are things we can do that changes it, in special using a darker tone and using different resonance strategies. I will search the forums later, if I remember well, Steven and Geno mentioned some real cases in the past.

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Actually, I get Felipe's point and he is not trying to be dictatorial or even elitist about the fach description. These terms were originated in opera and art singing, not modern pop singing. They really refer to the role being performed. A fach is a voice that can carry that role for however many performances the show runs. That is, one must have standards to measure against. If not, then the terms have no meaning since they could mean anything.

 

So, it's not about keeping tenor and baritone descriptions soley for the benefit of opera out of some sense of "these are my toys and you can't play with them." It is because they really are esoteric words suited only for that genre.

 

I totally get, also, what Felipe is saying about how you apply to each song. For example, I sing some Led Zep songs pretty well. That does not mean I can sing all of them well. And, if you ask me, neither did Robert Plant and he's may favorite singer, to boot. Faults all over the place, some times I wished he sang a song differently, etc.

 

Other times, I take on a song that I can technically do but I don't have the tone I am looking for or have found the right way to record it, like I mentioned in the thread on raw vocals. I only shared there for the purpose of the discussion. I still may not post for actual review the two songs I mentioned. Technically in my reach but not sounding like I want. Does that mean I am not doing "tenor" because those songs sound funny coming from me? No.

 

So, it really doesn't matter what fach name you want to give yourself. And since there is not much I can describe other than low or high-centered, I call my voice goosenfrabe. It can mean whatever I need it to mean, which is fine in pop and rock music. I can even call myself a rockbaritone, if I want to, since it doesn't mean anything. Like the saying goes, you can call me anything you want to call me, just don't call me late for dinner.

;)

 

Anyway, so I totally understand what Felipe is trying to say with this thread, nor was it meant engender yet another endless discussion. It is a carte blanche statement of approximate range requirements normally used in opera. If a member is singing opera, it will matter to him and his casting director and that is about it.

 

Kinda neat, too, having a forum format that allows stickies or permanently pinned subjects, kind of like a FAQ thread.

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I still find it pretty hard to be convinced that unless a singer is aiming for a classical standard of singing, they can't somewhat reliably be classified. I don't think it's based on what notes they can hit though, but what notes they hit/live in comfortably on a regular basis, where the passagios lie, and also the color/weight of their sound.

 

Also, I don't understand why mic singing is considered so different than singing without a mic? Whenever I record with a mic I'm still singing as loudly as I would without it (maybe I'm not supposed to) and having tried effects on my voice with a mic, I've found you can't really change it convincingly all that much. Maybe thousand-dollar studios can, I don't know how far the technical wizardry can go--but I can't.

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There's no guarantee, but on the list of singers who have helped me, the list of baritones is much longer.

 

Frank Sinatra taught me subtly in timbre, breath control,

James Hetfield helped me with chest voice shout that worked

Ray Charles/Toots Hibbert/David Ruffin all helped immensely with raspy singing that worked in my chest voice
David Bowie always had the closest relative 'voice type'

Prince encouraged falsetto

Al Green taught me how to blend my chest with twang and 'cut' in falsetto

Geoff Tate's lower voiced placement helped a lot as he maintains a 'singing tone' quite low (sang Silent Lucidity frequently), simply in finding a suitable position for the tract

 

Freddie gets tossed on either side, but he was the first introduction to 'lightening/bridging' that started making sense for me.

 

I do believe their physiology is likely a lot closer to mine than Stevie Wonder. Most beginning singers don't know how to sing in tune, much less change the key of someone else's song with a very foreign tract positioning or lighten earlier and sing it successfully. I'd agree there is no guarantee, but finding singers who are more similar to you makes singing much easier, at least until you have the ability to 'adapt.'

 

If you want an example of singing transcendence, and what sums up the purest essence of joy of untrained singers singing joyfully, take a look at this concert of Joe Strummer singing one of my favorite songs: White Man In Hammersmith Palais

 

 

The audience is there hanging on his every single word, overpowering him and his band, taking him aback to the point you can see him checking his ear monitor (can't hear himself), and the audience is (mostly) in tune to a pretty complex melody! They even cover Mick Jone's backing falsetto for him since by that point the Clash had broken up. It's cause Joe had a voice the average guy could intuitively grasp, relate to, and even without training, could passionately enjoy the ride. And pretty much, statistically speaking, that's the medium voiced guy or 'baritoneish' thing.

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Also, I don't understand why mic singing is considered so different than singing without a mic? Whenever I record with a mic I'm still singing as loudly as I would without it (maybe I'm not supposed to) and having tried effects on my voice with a mic, I've found you can't really change it convincingly all that much. Maybe thousand-dollar studios can, I don't know how far the technical wizardry can go--but I can't.

 That wasn't so much the reason for the pinned thread but you do raise a good point. A trained fach is for a singer to have volume and usable tone that carries, unamplified, over instruments.

 

I can make some low notes, some times, and they are only usable in a recording because of mic proximity and adjusting track volume in post-recording edit. Notes I could not make an evening out of, but I can get once or twice for a song. And with a tone that might be okay for pop music but might certainly be frowned upon in a classical setting.

 

That's why, outside of opera, I might describe a voice as high centered or low centered and that is about it. It does not imply range limit, just where your voice normally sits.

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Once again agree with Felipe. Also, killer, very nice post and good point. That video says alot. Not saying much more since this could be a forever plus one debate(ha ha yes felipe lame joke since you just covered that).

However I will respond to the question about the big deal about singing un miced. What you consider loud, i am sure is, but if you put that in the mix of 30 acoustic instruments or more. You will barely be able to hear your self, much less someone hear you 20 rows back. You never quite understand how loud a trained opera singer is, dramatic or not. You can sit in a 20 by 20 room with one, have them sing full volume. It is very uncomfortable, that is actually a test some of the old school teachers would give(and still do I am sure, even with technology).

It is a whole different breed of animal, that is why I said it is more physical than mental in that world. Like if I sing in good form, powerfull closure and support, but not sing in the "opera" configuration. I know for a fact what is louds as crap in that room, wont make it in a mix, there is this uncomfortable ring that will come out in a voice that will cut. Actually, most opera singers whom sing in a small room sound horrible, because the ring is so over powering, however in a large hall they sound amazing.

Just imagine, singing for sometimes close to 3 hours. But having to,maintain 85 plus db the whole time (some singings close in on 100db), while always having to maintain the 3k hz spike. Imagine all that for that long, and if you drop any of those variables you become just a mime......classical equals different animal. Also dont get me started on a trained soprano in a small room working the high register. Murder to the ears

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 That wasn't so much the reason for the pinned thread but you do raise a good point. A trained fach is for a singer to have volume and usable tone that carries, unamplified, over instruments.

 

I can make some low notes, some times, and they are only usable in a recording because of mic proximity and adjusting track volume in post-recording edit. Notes I could not make an evening out of, but I can get once or twice for a song. And with a tone that might be okay for pop music but might certainly be frowned upon in a classical setting.

 

That's why, outside of opera, I might describe a voice as high centered or low centered and that is about it. It does not imply range limit, just where your voice normally sits.

 

Mic singing is different. I can do a half fry down to a D2 that can fool untrained listeners, but I know I'm faking it. On a mic this can sound cool for effect, and I use it from time to time on 'playful' songs. But on a daily basis if I want the lowest 'solid' note that is pretty much always there it's F#2. I still wouldn't use this note in opera, though I'd use it over an acoustic guitar. My voice starts getting more 'kick' at G#2 and gains more meat.

 

High range is not the same. There a huge amount of ways to sing high and loud. I think the lower part of the voice in a slightly breathy tone (no fry) is more useful to figure out approximately how you might find comparable singers than the higher end which can be loud even in falsetto.

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Well I would just like to say a went to a "very highly respected" classical voice teacher just last week, just to see how he would classify me and after several scales and vocalises later he classified me as a baritone straight up. So with that being said there is no way I should be able to sing Stevie wonder or perry or Bruno Mars right? :/ hmm I would like the singers that know me on the forum to Discuss

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Well I would just like to say a went to a "very highly respected" classical voice teacher just last week, just to see how he would classify me and after several scales and vocalises later he classified me as a baritone straight up. So with that being said there is no way I should be able to sing Stevie wonder or perry or Bruno Mars right? :/ hmm I would like the singers that know me on the forum to Discuss

 

I'd be willing to bet you couldn't sing those songs using the same voice coordination (effort, weight, compression, closure) as the original singer. It's not about what you can sing, it's about how you likely have to sing it differently. I'd be wiling to bet Stevie Wonder if equally trained could likely hit a similar note in a more relaxed phonation as he would need less closure (just like women speak with more relaxed phonation on higher pitches than men). Sound generating from acoustic spaces through vibrations isn't magical pixie dust and something has to give or change. It's like you can't downtune a guitar far enough to be a bass (goes slack, needs more tension to resonate) or uptune a bass enough to be a guitar (would break the neck with tension).

 

All instruments including the voice are physical objects that must obey science. There are a lot of possibilities, but they aren't, imo, limitless. 

 

Anyway, back on topic I was thinking about beginners wondering what type of voice they have and what to do about it. I still think the low note check is a nice way to get started and once you've developed a pretty nice 'singing' timbre in your comfortable range then lifting it up, lightening it, or 'tricking it out' seems a next step. I don't think Steve Perry or Stevie Wonder are good starting points for heavier voiced singers. whether you can do this now, isn't very relevant for 99 percent of the singing population.  

 

If anyone was wondering about the low sustained breathy note check, versus the fry stuff, I made an example of how lower voices can be faked with mic placement on fry:

 

I also sang a bunch of comparative mid low/higher tenor sounding things. Showing how you can take a 'singing tone you might find in a baritone range and learn to 'lighten it up as you become more skilled. But it really helps to have the singing sound in the first place and Steve Perry won't help many lower voiced men find their 'singing sounds.' He's more of a barrier than a help to a starting singer.

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So with that being said there is no way I should be able to sing Stevie wonder or perry or Bruno Mars right? :/ hmm I would like the singers that know me on the forum to Discuss

 

Oh, man, if we were in the same room so that you could get my inflection, I could have ripped you but good on that and have you laughing. Only to go along with my respect for you as a teacher and professional working singer with your own band. What did I drink or eat to suffer this horrible case of decorum? m/

 

You are a blessing everywhere you go and every time you speak, Daniel.

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So refreshing to see Joe Strummer positively referenced on a singing forum. Great clip. R.I.P.

 

 

He's one of my bigger musical heroes for sure, incredibly distinct voice, always running on all cylinders of passion, and wrote some of the most original lyrics of any popular musician I've ever heard.

 

But I've never cared about technique for the sake of technique. To me technique is like a means to an end, and nothing more. Joe sang from the heart, and definitely from the gut. If I were to say one thing about him, he sounded like he had good 'support.' I don't think I'd want him any other way personally as a singer.

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Well I would just like to say a went to a "very highly respected" classical voice teacher just last week, just to see how he would classify me and after several scales and vocalises later he classified me as a baritone straight up. So with that being said there is no way I should be able to sing Stevie wonder or perry or Bruno Mars right? :/ hmm I would like the singers that know me on the forum to Discuss

 

Baritone?  Interesting.  And of course you can sing like those guys very convincingly.  You are living proof of what can be accomplished with a ton of hard work (and talent!).  

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Well I would just like to say a went to a "very highly respected" classical voice teacher just last week, just to see how he would classify me and after several scales and vocalises later he classified me as a baritone straight up. So with that being said there is no way I should be able to sing Stevie wonder or perry or Bruno Mars right? :/ hmm I would like the singers that know me on the forum to Discuss

 

Well but that´s just because you heavy voiced guys have an easy time singing light stuff... oh wait  :huh:

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Baritone?  Interesting.  And of course you can sing like those guys very convincingly.  You are living proof of what can be accomplished with a ton of hard work (and talent!).  

 

Sing their stuff 'well' or 'sing like them?' I think those are very different things. Would be interesting if science advances far enough for a laryngologist to measure the tension of various muscular configurations occurring when a singer phonates the same pitch attempting to recreate another's timbre. Acoustically, I would imagine they simply have to coordinate something different as that is how sound works in different acoustical settings.

 

It could be I'm wrong, but I can't picture this scientifically. In order to sing 'like' someone you have to have similar physiology in order to 'sound like them'. In an attempt to recreate timbre (sound like them), you could alter your approach compared to theirs. There are too many different factors (acoustic space, cord length, muscular engagement, etc) for an identical action to be the most likely to recreate a similar result.

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That's the thing about science and the voice. the voice is not an exact science it handles different every day and all you can really do is manage it. There are to many factors involved internally and externally. Depending on how a student hears the teacher And vice versa as well. So I always encourage students to get out sing as much as possible and find out for themselves if it is keeping them healthy and not getting them hoarseand hurting them. You can make an unhealthy, healthy sounding sound. So be a tenor or baritone or bass or alto etc. be what you want don't get boxed in, if you want to sing a certain style but don't sound great doing it.... Practice.

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Well I would just like to say a went to a "very highly respected" classical voice teacher just last week, just to see how he would classify me and after several scales and vocalises later he classified me as a baritone straight up. So with that being said there is no way I should be able to sing Stevie wonder or perry or Bruno Mars right? :/ hmm I would like the singers that know me on the forum to Discuss

 

I confess guys, I haven't had time to read this entire discussion, ... but to Dan's point, Im a baritone as well. Classical Fach does not seem to be too relevant when you get out of the Classical character roles and you have the ability to "splatt" vowels a bit if you want or need to. 

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I confess guys, I haven't had time to read this entire discussion, ... but to Dan's point, Im a baritone as well. Classical Fach does not seem to be too relevant when you get out of the Classical character roles and you have the ability to "splatt" vowels a bit if you want or need to. 

 

You sing like a baritone to me though. Geoff Tate ish style, but with more of your own flavor (not a weak clone). And you didn't start on the high notes. You started as a baritone and worked your way through things, getting a solid foundation to shoot from. At least that's the way I've pictured things from the way you've spoke about getting classical lessons.

 

The reason why I've made my point is that people will come on here, and squeeze their balls and throats trying to hit your notes without a solid foundation. They can and they will do this. I'm confident they already do. It takes a huge amount of work and effort, to get those notes, and imo I think it's more work for a baritone than a tenor. When people say 'fach doesn't matter' it sounds encouraging to me as if people should just squeeze that little bit harder like a classical tenor probably could get away with.

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Ive never said they didn't help me, but I cant for my life understand why they put an completly untrained singer in a fach.

Isnt that spitting true Baritones in the face?That actualy spent 10 years singing arias and doing technique to call themselves Baritones.

Ofc you need to train a singer from the basics, that doesnt change but to put a Guy that hasnt even learned to sing above the passagio in a fach is to me ludacris.

One of my favourite operatic singers is a baritone, Peter Mattei check him out cool singer.

And no my voice has never been anything like his, I wish however :)

If you read online fach is also some kindo of weird vocal identity, everyone wants to be sorted by the sorting hat(please god let me be in gryffindor,dramatic tenor).

What is my voice like? What will i be able to do? Ohh Im a tenor so Im the same as pavarotti cool!

I searched with light and Torch for guys who could teach me to sing the way I wanted, eventualy I found guys that said "ofc you can learn to do that just do X" I did X and lo and behold i got almost everything i wanted. Thats the reason Im on this board alot of the guys has helped me.

Robert Lunte

Martin H

Felipe Carvalho

Daniel formica

All great guys,great coaches and singers.

I have a friend who was trained as a basso in musical theatre for 2 years, the Only problem is there is no Work in musical for basso except for ensamble if your lucky.

He trained James lugos(moderator on this boards program for 4 months) then got hired as a tenor. Does this mean he magicly switched fach? Probably not, although he felt like he had "cheated" into becoming a diffrent voice just because he identified so much with the lowervoice.

 

To be a Maestro, you must learn from other Maestros. 

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I think when you push your instrument to the max like that, you lose that freedom to do what you want. You are limited by more physical attributes, than mental. That is why all opera singers "sound the same" to alot of people. Because they are doing what is physically needed to make the needed volume and frequency required.

I will pull this from a long thing i wrote on this thread. Claasical.....critical the fach is....contemporary who cares out the window. Just a fun fact to know, maybe help with your breaks. Daniel coming in here and stirring the pot all up again ha ha

Feel like we are beating a dead horse lol.

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I will pull this from a long thing i wrote on this thread. Claasical.....critical the fach is....contemporary who cares out the window. Just a fun fact to know, maybe help with your breaks. Daniel coming in here and stirring the pot all up again ha ha

Feel like we are beating a dead horse lol.

 

For my personal tastes I couldn't agree more with this dug up quote. I find when singing you'll feel an emotion, but some techniques don't allow my throat/mouth/pharynx/etc/physiology to be in the natural position it would be when I would feel that emotion in other circumstances (happiness, sadness, anger, all affect the vocal tract in unique ways, most emotions have some relationship).

 

Some techniques are so precise, it's part of why I just use falsetto past a certain point, cause I like to be able to 'feel' anything when emotion happens, without risking injury that could be caused if I was locked down into a 'technique' that couldn't safely be moved by an emotional change.

 

So basically I found a way to sing that allows me to feel most any emotion, and let my vocal tract reflect those emotions more honestly, while not feeling overly limited by range or anything. But I'll never sing opera, or likely even some of the more technical material others here sing. I guess each singer would have a ratio of this, how much of a mechanical influence, and how much of an emotional influence. Opera singers probably being on one far end of this, and me being closer to the other side.

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I will pull this from a long thing i wrote on this thread. Claasical.....critical the fach is....contemporary who cares out the window. Just a fun fact to know, maybe help with your breaks. Daniel coming in here and stirring the pot all up again ha ha

Feel like we are beating a dead horse lol.

 

 

   I think part of the reason Felipe started this thread here and pinned it was to keep the dead horse beating contained.

Every few days someone would post What fach am I? I can sing from ...to ...   The answer would be if not trained yet or not singing Opera/musical theater it does not matter yet. Start where you are comfortable and work from there.

   It is true that even though Fach may not matter in pop, when we submit a cover we are still Judged or compared to the vocal weight and style of whoever the preferred singer of the "Original" version is.  Basically what Fach or compartment they belong to.

  But the thing is Fach (if you have an idea of yours) is a two edged sword. Either you limit yourself and stick to a certain range or you Push to maintain your so called Fach instead of learning how to control different aspects of your voice and find out what your voice can do when not forcing or tensing or worrying over what Fach you fit into.

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I chimed in only because I actually did go to someone last week that has never heard a note out of my mouth. And i wanted to see what i would be classified as.  I never meant to cause any confusion or animosity. I figured it was relevant to the thread. 

 

also Killer ku when you said :The reason why I've made my point is that people will come on here, and squeeze their balls and throats trying to hit your notes without a solid foundation. They can and they will do this. I'm confident they already do. It takes a huge amount of work and effort, to get those notes, and imo I think it's more work for a baritone than a tenor. When people say 'fach doesn't matter' it sounds encouraging to me as if people should just squeeze that little bit harder like a classical tenor probably could get away with."

 

the soundcloud you demonstrated, was that on how to squeeze without solid foundation or were you just showing how you sing? IT wasnt clear if it was for teaching or showing the technique you actually use? 

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