Shoulders Movement on Breath

[vakatar]

Hello! I have a question about breathing that I can't find the answer to.

 

In all the vocal schools / books that I've studied, the correct basic breathing technique is explained almost the same way: rib cage is expanded, breath comes from abs area without moving shoulders or rib cage up. But when I look at how different singers from popular rock bands take a breath when they sing - almost all of them have VERY noticeable shoulders movement up (and then immediately down) on each breath. Why? I guess they can't all do it in a wrong way, so is it some kind of advanced breathing technique that uses some back muscles causing shoulders to go up? Or what is it? Where can I find some detailed explanation?

[m.i.r.]

Well before any answer is given I suppose i would ask who you are refering to. Any singer I have ever seen that can SING, it is like they never have to breathe and the breath just appears. No visual or auditable signs they are human lol. Of course if you really really listen, you will hear little sips here and there. But you get my drift, they are a smooth well oiled machine.

I will say sometimes, on heavy compressed sounds, like high powerfull notes and what not. You might see a little body jolt, if they hit the phrase hard. This could be misconstrued as shoulder movement.

However, it seems you labeled rock singers. Alot of rock singers cant really SING, that is why their live shows dont sound the same as recorded stuff. Or even worse, lip synced. Of course I know there are power houses in rock duh, I am just going on a limb here.

But with rock singers that cant sing super well, they rely on yelling for hitting high note, distortion, or both. Breaking the vocal folds apart to the point of yelling or distortion (the un healthy stuff like gotal shock stuff) with proper breathing is actually challenging. Proper breathing brings balance, to sing this way you need im balance. Rib breathing can bring a ton more pressure, so alot of the in trained screamers and so on, use this style of breathing to get the over flow of pressure.

Of course once again it would help to know who you speak of. I can think of alot of well trained rock singers that you would never know they ever take a breath

[vakatar]

Well I can name different examples, but I just found a short answer to similar question on youtube comments from Ken Tamplin, so I'll go with him as an example.

 

Here's his video where he does that movement up and down on almost each breath. 

 

And here's his answer to the similar question in comments to this video:

 

 

look a little closer. I am not "keeping" my shoulders raised. When singing a powerful song, you will see me take a "quick hit" of air and then immediately dropping my shoulders again. They do not stay in a raised position. The amount of air intake for a heavy song requires a substantial amount of air compression. This is precisely what yo are seeing.

 

Can someone explain what it means in more details or where can I find some detailed explanation on this technique and how to do it right?

[Danielformica]

Well if you are allowing the air in the body and your shoulders raise and you sing fine don't sweat it. It's like telling a baseball pitcher not to throw sidearm because technically it's wrong but he throws 100 mph and strikes everyone out. Singing 100% safe is not even trying to sing hard rock songs. But if you are breathing lifting your shoulders and can't understand why you don't support your tone well then don't do it find another way

[ronws]

I agree with Daniel. Don't get worried about small movements.

[vakatar]

It's quite the opposite. I don't have this movement, but when I see that most of rock singers that I like (and consider good) do that movement while singing - here comes a logical assumption that it's some kind of advanced trick.

[m.i.r.]

Daniel and ron are both the if it aint broke dont fix it type. Or if it works use it. Which makes since in a way.

As for using tamplin as an example. He does alot of things that most people couldnt survive with. Super tight pressed tone especially up top, holding on the chest voice as long as humanly possible ect. You can see all of his neck muscles tensing trying to hold the notes up top, that would side line way way too many people. Or his out of control tongue, he says its on purpose, I think its from all that insane tension. However, we dont really know how much he actually sings. You can get away with damaging stuff, if you only sing sporadically. Or only to record a song a day, or something like that. You want to look at the singers that can put on an amazing show night after night. That brings out all the bs right there, seperates theory from fact.

One thing i will say for tamplin, is supposedly he practices an appoigio technique. So when he breathes, he may be in a very exaggerated way expanding the ribs with the torso, but only powering from the torso. Which in a way work, but the better technique appogio is much smoother you cant even see the person breathe.

[MasterBlaster]

In the video Tamplin is doing what's called "clavicular breathing" and it's generally considered the worst breathing technique. Tamplin has been singing so long that he can get away with it but as new singer you don't want to copy this bad habit. It's not the "secret" to a powerful singing voice. The answer that he gave is just BS. He doesn't want to admit that his breathing technique is not so great because this means he will sell less "How to be the greatest singer on Earth" courses.

 

Pick up any book on singing and the first thing they will tell you is breath from the diaphram and not from up high (clavicular). Watch any YouTube vocal coach and they will tell you the same thing. Even Tamplin with "tell you" to breath from the diaphram.

 

Here's a good, albeit alarmist,  article about the pitfalls of clavicular breathing:

http://www.theschoolofsinging.com/clavicle-breathing-the-exact-opposite/

 

 

Check out this video of Ronnie James Dio singing in the studio. His shoulders aren't moving up when he's breathing and also there's no tension in his neck and no red tomato face. Granted he's just singing a few lines here but this is how he always looks when he sings even on the high notes that kill the rest of us.  This is an example of guy  whose technique you should emulate. 

 

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[m.i.r.]

Ha ha, yeah the name of his singing course says it all*eye roll*, plus 300 dollar an hour private lessons *eye roll* x2.

I figured it was not anything to do with the appogio, was just trying to give him some sort of benefit of the doubt to be somewhat nice. However, classical training is an area of my expertise and I have never seen that style of breathing make someones body go nuts like that. That def helps to explain all that insane neck tension.

Yes vakatar, as the master blaster says run from the techique, be happy you arent shrugging your shoulders every phrase, or tongue dancing. Dio is a good example of fluid style, and a voice that stood the test of time.

The people who you want to look at are the people whom you never see breathe, no tension, and relaxed. Its like they just open their mouth and sound just pours out, if you had it muted, you would think their mouth was just hanging open.

[Khassera]

Breathing really isn't that hard..

 

Blowing up a balloon or blowing forcibly through a straw activates the muscles you need to support your tone. Doing either for a prolonged time, that is, to draw breath and breathe out as long as you possibly can to feel the muscles. Also, blowing staccato through a straw is great exercise for said muscles. This also takes the "tensing before the breath" out of the equation. Don't tense to breathe, breathe to tense (as needed).

 

My absolute favourite non-vocal breath exercise is hanging leg raises while blowing staccato through a straw on each lift.

 

It really isn't that hard..

 

EDIT: Or you can just vocalise scales on a "Vv." That also really works out the breathing for some reason.

[Jens]

Ouch Jussi bjorlings shoulders do the same thing, I guess he can't sing afterall

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzaOokC_Sts

Or wait perhaps there is some benefit to do this movement Duh Duh Duh

First of this is part of torso anchoring, you activate the muscles under your armpits (squeezing oranges) wich activates the big muscles on top of the back.

Wich aid in the support to the voice, you see often see this extra much when there's a lot of words long phrases with much consonants.

When you then take a breath you release this tension and then re activate it, thus the heavy bopping.

also when people belt very chesty it's actually of benefit not to fillup your lungs completly, if you fill up less air in the lungs your folds get a extra compression.

Wich is usually why you see these maneuver a lot more in big belt singers.

Ofc I'm not gonna claim that all people who does this are amazing singers or does this correctly, but I'm mainly showing there is an benefit that can be gained by doing this.

[Jens]

The shoulders raising is not the moment I talk about, they raise because the support releases it's tension at breath, not because you are using the shallow chest breathing that nonsingers tend to use.

The shoulders per see don't matter you are using the muscles under the armpits to increase your support, so When you take a new breath and release tension the shoulders pop up, but you bear down on them again to activate the support.

Estill voicecraft teaches some of this it's called torsoanchoring I belive, I've read about this in many other scources that I don't remember right now :)

[MasterBlaster]

I think once in a while you do need to take a quick "refesher" breath from the chest but in general diaphragmatic breathing is your best option.

 

In this video here you can actually see Corelli's stomach move when he takes a breath and yes he does take a few upper chest breaths too which I believe are "refreshers" because there is not enough time to take a full breath. 

How come Corelli doesn't have to raise his shoulders to release tension? Maybe Corelli is not do it right.

 

As far as Jussi bjorling is concerned  I think any honest experienced vocal coach would say he's not breathing in the most ideal way. And yes I am just a pee on who will never be as good as bjorling but come on how many coaches would take a new student and tell him to breath like bjorling's doing in the video. Be honest.

[MDEW]

    All singing is not the same.... You learn basic fundamentals, basic techniques. Low larynx, diaphramatic breathing......Adjust from there.

You would not sing High Rock n Roll the same way you would sing Opera, Music theater, Soft Jazz.........

   The torso anchoring is a good point. A lot of times when you see someone singing high or difficult passages whatch where the forearms are... They will usually be above the waist withe the elbows away from the body. Female singers usually clasp their hands together also. This helps to engage those muscles.

[Martin H]

I would say: It depends! And I say that a lot.

[Jens]

I think once in a while you do need to take a quick "refesher" breath from the chest but in general diaphragmatic breathing is your best option.

In this video here you can actually see Corelli's stomach move when he takes a breath and yes he does take a few upper chest breaths too which I believe are "refreshers" because there is not enough time to take a full breath.

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How come Corelli doesn't have to raise his shoulders to release tension? Maybe Corelli is not do it right.

As far as Jussi bjorling is concerned I think any honest experienced vocal coach would say he's not breathing in the most ideal way. And yes I am just a pee on who will never be as good as bjorling but come on how many coaches would take a new student and tell him to breath like bjorling's doing in the video. Be honest.

There is not just one way to support, and many singers work their support diffrently it also work diffrently depending on what you sing(style,language,loudness,dialects). I think this is one of the big faults we do as singers and coaches for that matter, we are constantly looking for the or believing we have the most ultimate way to do things.

Some singers need to fully activate the back to sing well, some dont, some still don't but yet they do. Some do it for certain passages ect

It's very individual, if you take dio like many mentioned he usually tucked his shoulders up his ears when he sang live and leaned back a lot probably activating his back. Is that wrong? No as long as it works

[Jens]

[MasterBlaster]

Jens you're making things too complicated. You're talking about advanced singing techniques. A 5000 page book could be written about changing your your support for differerent styles,languages,loudnesses and dialects.  Holy crap, different support for different dialects that's beyond me. I like to sing some pop, rock and even some rap but my breathing is basically the same. Good old boring basic diaphragmatic breathing. No special breathing tricks. And yup it works. 

 

So Jens what's your advice for  vakatar ? My advice is simple  breath from the diaphragm and try to limit your upper chest breathing for all styles of music you'll be off to a good start. 

[Jens]

Jens you're making things too complicated. You're talking about advanced singing techniques. A 5000 page book could be written about changing your your support for differerent styles,languages,loudnesses and dialects. Holy crap, different support for different dialects that's beyond me. I like to sing some pop, rock and even some rap but my breathing is basically the same. Good old boring basic diaphragmatic breathing. No special breathing tricks. And yup it works.

So Jens what's your advice for vakatar ? My advice is simple breath from the diaphragm and try to limit your upper chest breathing for all styles of music you'll be off to a good start.

Well if you read the question at the top of the page you will see i presented an answer to his question, wich is yes those moments can be of benefit.If you do it correct, wich activates the back support.

Ofc I understand these concepts might be abit confusing to understand and you might find it to advanced, and just wanna keep it simple. That's ok

The Bottomline is the question was not about diaphragm breathing, it was about the movements of the shoulders.

There will be other threads where we will dive into diaphragmatic breathing aswell.

Cheers

[MasterBlaster]

Well if you read the question at the top of the page you will see i presented an answer to his question, wich is yes those moments can be of benefit.If you do it correct, wich activates the back support.

Ofc I understand these concepts might be abit confusing to I understand if you find it to advanced, and just wanna keep it simple.

The Bottomline is the question was not about diaphragm breathing, it was about the movements of the shoulders.

Cheers

 

 

Yup when it comes to breathing I like the simple approach, I really think more singers would benefit from a  "just breath and sing" philosophy without worrying so much about all the intricacies they can't really control. To me breathing is by far the easiest thing to doing in singing. I don’t worry about back support this and anchoring this because to me it’s easy – you take a breath and sing - and guess what it works, at least for me. Of course this is usually not a satisfactory breathing method for most singers because they think the the   breathing is some magical thing that will make you great singer.  I’ve never bought into the breathing obession. To me the hardest part of singing is what you do with the breath at the larynx and above (neutral larynx, proper vocal fold stretching, shaping vowels all that stuff).

 

FYI The question is 100% related to diaphragm breathing because vakatar asked if the breathing method he was taught (diaphragmatic breathing) was wrong. I contend it’s correct and he should not raise his shoulders when taking a breath. But that’s just me.

[Jens]

Yup when it comes to breathing I like the simple approach, I really think more singers would benefit from a  "just breath and sing" philosophy without worrying so much about all the intricacies they can't really control. To me breathing is by far the easiest thing to doing in singing. I don’t worry about back support this and anchoring this because to me it’s easy – you take a breath and sing - and guess what it works, at least for me. Of course this is usually not a satisfactory breathing method for most singers because they think the the   breathing is some magical thing that will make you great singer.  I’ve never bought into the breathing obession. To me the hardest part of singing is what you do with the breath at the larynx and above (neutral larynx, proper vocal fold stretching, shaping vowels all that stuff).

 

FYI The question is 100% related to diaphragm breathing because vakatar asked if the breathing method he was taught (diaphragmatic breathing) was wrong. I contend it’s correct and he should not raise his shoulders when taking a breath. But that’s just me.

I totally agree, I don't like to complicate things either. It's not magic, but if you see a very skilled singer move his shoulders a lot or pushes down with his shoulders does not mean he/she is doing anything wrong, It does not mean his/hers support is bad. It does not mean he/she is not using diaphragmatic breathing.

It usually means they activate the back muscles for extra support, I'm talking trained strong singers here not guys who is just starting out.

Cheers

[m.i.r.]

I can actually explain the jussi thing. Since this question came up a while ago at UNT and i was told to go read this book about him. He is actually powering from the torso. He practices a pretty extreme cough off which I have spoken about before, rids all the old air. Then he refills. However when he does he expands the ribs in the appogio postion and holds them there, at the same time during the breath he drops the diaphragm with his torso. Its just one solid motion, and his chain of events he runs the diaphragm up first, then compresses the ribs, to get every little bit of air out. He may do this to sing an entire phrase, or collapse like that in his cough off to rid all the old air, just depends on how long the phrase is.

The new appogio style, it keeps the upper ribs expanded at all times, and only collapse the lower part that holds the diaphragm. Those are the people you cant really see breathe. Though, I can say, at least for me, I kinda follow the jussi approach in a way. Since I like his style of only taking in an ounce of air as he says, since it does help with better closer. If I do come across a phrase where just diaphragm isnt enough, I will use the ribs to get that last little bit. However, i dont focus much on up rib expansion, just lower. So even when I cough off the extra air, you really dont see it. However, in his time, holding a very high sternum was the bees knees, so that might explain why his re tanks was so pronounced.

[ronws]

Dio, Saint Dio, patron saint of singers. Awesome, Jens.

 

Anyway, so watching him perform, how does one tell if he is shoulder-heaving? He is gesticulating with his arms without having to cover a lot of stage. I think this is in part because he was a small guy and waving his arms around not only punctuates the song, it allows you to see him.

 

As opposed to Toby Keith, who is 6' 6" (2 meters) tall and takes up a lot of stage just standing there.

[VideoHere]

Jens is right. These are highly skilled singers that sing with above the norm intensity.

 

Lou Gramm can be seen doing a lot of shoulder lifting then dropping down hard and engaging his whole body to sing the stuff he does. I asked Ken Tamplin once why he does it, and he said it's to manage and displace tension which is also a primary benefit to appoggio .

 

One day soon I hope to sit down with him, (getting closer LOL!!!) and I'm going to find out about this shoulder thing he did.

 

For some reason I cannot embed videos on the new forum, but if you look at Lou's early days videos you'll see it used a lot. He literally thrusts his shoulder down pretty hard.

[MasterBlaster]

According to Tamplin the number one rule to great singing is "diaphragmatic support". No mention here about using the shoulders to engage the support. 

 

In  Rule 4 (2:06) - Stress Management - Ken advocates relaxing to the sound and not to clench up so basically   to not raise the shoulders is how I interpret what he is saying.

 

 

 

Maybe you have to be a member of the illuminati to learn this secret shoulder technique. Who knows?