Thyroid Tilt.

[cantando]

Any Estill experts here? I've come to realize that the main thing that has been holding me back is that I can't get thyroid tilt to happen in thick folds. I have been trying for a very long time now and nothing seems to work. I can make it happen only in very thin. Someone once brought my attention to the fact that one unmistakable sign that thyroid tilt is happening is that an octave feels extremely small, which is due to the fact that the folds are already pulled tighter and the arytenoids have to move less to reach higher notes. In my thinnest thin, I can make it happen easily, but otherwise, it just doesn't happen no matter how much effortfully I use cry/sob.

 

Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to get thyroid tilt and thick folds (modal voice) at the same time?

[gno]

Not sure about Estil, but that the understanding here is that the mere act of using the CT to stretch your folds starts to move you out of the "thick fold" configuration.  You should be able to make the transition barely perceptible to the listener - keeping the tone like "chest voice" as you start thinning the folds.  Sounds like you can do it at low volume but not high volume yet.  Keep in mind the switching point goes higher in pitch the louder you're singing.  For example, I learned how to do it with loud volume first at around A4 or Bb4.

[m.i.r.]

Ha ha, that funny. I started off being too loud, not being able to quiet down the mix.

It sounds like you could be over covering, posting a sample would save alot of steps and guessing. However, that is a common thing to do when someone is just learning to tilt, sounds extremely dopey. Or like a classical performer, singing through a pillow.

[Robert Lunte]

There are so many variables. You need to post a sample , but even beyond that. I just don't see how your going to get the help you need with this, without taking a session lesson with someone who understands . Are you training? Because if your not working out regularly, you will understand the concept, but never get the musculature coordinated or complete the resistance training that needs to be done to get a real result. My guess is that your struggling with this simply because your muscle strength and coordination is atrophied and not up to where it needs to be. You have to train hard to get twang to work for you at extreme frequencies as well as build the strength of the CT and other related musculature. I think belt techniques would help you as well as specialized onsets designed to activate hyper compressions of he vocal folds.

 

In my training program, "The Four Pillars of Singing", we offer specialized onsets that can be very helpful in isolating musculature work and providing resistance training routines for your singing... as well as trouble-shooting problems. If I had a chance to work with you in person, I could diagnose the issue quickly and give you techniques and routines that would likely get you past this problem. There are other good coaches on here as well that could help you. Regardless, you need to get in front of someone that is knowledgeable about training techniques for this issue.

[m.i.r.]

Robert speaks the truth. We could help you some I am sure with you posting a sample. However, just like a sample is worth a 1000 words. So is a feeling. If I tell you to increase ct pull and let lose the ta a bit or vice versa, that will do nothing.

But an exercise that gives you the right feeling to build off of, that is worth more than a thousand words.

[ronws]

Any Estill experts here? I've come to realize that the main thing that has been holding me back is that I can't get thyroid tilt to happen in thick folds. I have been trying for a very long time now and nothing seems to work. I can make it happen only in very thin. Someone once brought my attention to the fact that one unmistakable sign that thyroid tilt is happening is that an octave feels extremely small, which is due to the fact that the folds are already pulled tighter and the arytenoids have to move less to reach higher notes. In my thinnest thin, I can make it happen easily, but otherwise, it just doesn't happen no matter how much effortfully I use cry/sob.

 

Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to get thyroid tilt and thick folds (modal voice) at the same time?

 

The voice is logarithmic, not scalar. So, the higher up in range you are, the less physical change is needed to ascend through an octave. As far as massive thickness of folds up top, not going to happen. It's a physics thingy. And an anatomy thingy. A high note is small mass vibrating fast. It never will be all the mass of your folds vibrating at the highest note. Never, ever, not in a million years, not in all of eternity. It is more likely that unicorns exist than you will have ever have maximum fold involvement up in the 5th octave, for example.

 

You can make it sound "modal" even if you are not modal in action. That would be by resonance.

 

The other example I like to give is the guitar but any stringed instrument will do. The 6 string guitar has 6 strings. The 6th is the big fat one. Open standard tuning is E2. Try to make it play an E6 and you will break it.

 

First string is the skinniest one. Open tuning is E4. You can play E6 on it all day, if you want. You will not get it to play E2 or lower. You could tune it down to B3 and it will start to get loose and floppy and lose its ring.

 

When I say standard tuning, that is based on A4 (first string, 5th fret) at 440 Hz. At home, that is how I tune my guitar. I tune to A 440 and then tune backwards from there.

 

I think, too, that people mean different things by "chest." They might mistake a spread and raspy tone on high notes as being chest or modal, when it is not. In fact, it may involve small and irregular amounts of tissue in vibration. Resonated in the head and amplified through a 400 watt house pa.

 

Others have this theoretical windmill to which they pledge an eternal quest of max fold involvement in the 5th octave when most any classical source can say that even a light tenor is mixing or bridging by F4, regardless of how full it sounds.

[MDEW]

      If you just want to exercise the "tilt" stick your tongue out and sing an ascending slide or siren. Or siren with a "Rasberry"(tongue beween lips and blow)  but add voice to it. This one can get messy.

[Khassera]

      If you just want to exercise the "tilt" stick your tongue out and sing an ascending slide or siren. Or siren with a "Rasberry"(tongue beween lips and blow)  but add voice to it. This one can get messy.

 

So that's what the "tongue exercise" was for. Hunh.

[MDEW]

    If not for the mess the raspberry is a good all around exercise. It gets the tongue out of your throat, sends the sound up and back, provides occluded phonation, stabilizes the larynx and lets people know how you feel about them.   Along with Nya, Nya, Nya it is no wonder that my school yard bullies ended up being good singers.

[Robert Lunte]

Raspberries?  Yes, they are good for the voice for sure. A classic semi-occluded phonation. 

[cantando]

Not sure about Estil, but that the understanding here is that the mere act of using the CT to stretch your folds starts to move you out of the "thick fold" configuration.

 

CT=cricothyroid?

 

It is my understanding that while the tilt does tend to thin the folds, it can be independent of "body cover" (thick/thin, loud/soft, etc.) and is responsible for the clarity and "sweet" quality that many operatic singers have even while singing very loud.

 

There are so many variables. You need to post a sample , but even beyond that. I just don't see how your going to get the help you need with this, without taking a session lesson with someone who understands . Are you training? Because if your not working out regularly, you will understand the concept, but never get the musculature coordinated or complete the resistance training that needs to be done to get a real result. My guess is that your struggling with this simply because your muscle strength and coordination is atrophied and not up to where it needs to be. You have to train hard to get twang to work for you at extreme frequencies as well as build the strength of the CT and other related musculature. I think belt techniques would help you as well as specialized onsets designed to activate hyper compressions of he vocal folds.

 

You're right, I should post a sample of my singing. I'll try to do that soon when I get a chance to figure out how.

 

So, here's my situation. I discovered Estill almost 3 years ago, and took two courses in it. It has been the ONLY thing that has ever actually made a significant difference in my singing, after doing an undergrad degree in music ed with a voice concentration and a master in voice performance, studying with highly respected teachers who did wonders for almost everyone else. My voice has always been stubborn and unresponsive to generic, conventional "techniques". Estill has given me a major boost in control and understanding, and has given me a huge toolbox as a vice teacher. What really gets me is that I can't do a lot of what I very successfully teach others to do! It's indescribably frustrating.

 

I study sporadically with a teacher who is an extraordinary pedagogical guru with a PhD in voice pathology and was a long time student of Jo Estill herself. The trouble is that she is very expensive and lives somewhat far away, and that makes it difficult to get very regular lessons with her with my financial situation and work schedule. She has brought me to the understanding that the thyroid tilt is what I really need to get where I want to be vocally, and I know she's right. I know that real life interactive instruction is vital, but given my current situation, I wanted to pick the brains of all of you here and see if anyone might be able to offer any suggestions or strategies until I'm able to get another lesson with my teacher.

 

You mentioned muscular strength and endurance, and I've often wondered about how much that really comes into play. What "belt techniques" and "specialized onsets" are you talking about?

 

      If you just want to exercise the "tilt" stick your tongue out and sing an ascending slide or siren. Or siren with a "Rasberry"(tongue beween lips and blow)  but add voice to it. This one can get messy.

 

That is a good exercise for practicing phonation without tongue retroflexing, and yes it can be messy. Does that actually cause tilt?

[Robert Lunte]

In  regards to Estill, there is a significant amount of ideas and sources of inspiration from Estill in my program, in particular, the 8 physical modes... 6 of them are very EVTS, I added two more for TVS, "Quack Mode" & "Distortion Mode". The people at Estill have done some great work.

 

I agree with your sentiment Cantando, Estill tends to be really a good idea for voice teachers. Its good for singers too, but the vocal figures are really suited well for pedagogy.

 

Cantando, Im referring to training techniques in the TVS program, "The Four Pillars of Singing"... also, you are my student/customer, are you not?  I just realized that... that makes me even more interested in training with you and helping you. It should not be that difficult for you... someone that has that much Estillian experience and is a teacher... to be able to make their figures?  I hope we can get a chance to work on some lessons, because I want to see what your doing that is preventing you from doing the EVTS figures, they should be relatively easy.

 

If you have TFPOS as I suspect you do... go to the the twang information in the book and watch the videos on vocal twang. Try the "Supplemental Onsets" for Edging Vowels in the program as well... they should help engage your "tilt"...  

[MDEW]

   I can't say that the raspberry causes tilt but it takes some of the obstacles out of the equasian.

[Robert Lunte]

Oh, I should of been more clear on that... lip trills are great... but NO, they are not preferred for cricoid or thyroid tilt... for that, you should do "resonant tracking" or train on nasal consonants... /m/, /n/, /ng/.

[Steven Fraser]

I can't say that the raspberry causes tilt but it takes some of the obstacles out of the equation.

MDEW... As you know, the raspberry on its own does not cause the tilt. It's the SIREN that you mentioned that can provoke it. However, the tilt will not happen if the onset concept provokes phonation that is over-registered to the point that the TA does not release enough to be stretched. That is the role of the raspberry. The indication that this release has not happened is that the siren 'tops out', and does not smoothly continue up to the top.

Cantando: It really is great that you have found progress with the Estill approach. I have a question, though... Can you siren in falsetto or light full voice?

[MDEW]

   I can't say that the raspberry causes tilt but it takes some of the obstacles out of the equasian.

    I only had a minute to write that. I agree that it is actually the phonation, slide and respiration balance that provokes the "Tilt". The rasberry takes away some of the obstacles like bobbing larynx, bunched up tongue/stiff tongue, faulty placement, expectation of what it is supposed to sound like(and doing the wrong thing to make a certain sound) wondering where to modify the vowel (or trying to stay true to the vowel.

   The only thing you have to do is make noise in an ascending slide and hear and feel what happens.

[Steven Fraser]

MDEW... I was just extending the idea, to fill in the picture a bit.

[Steven Fraser]

...In my thinnest thin, I can make it happen easily, but otherwise, it just doesn't happen no matter how much effortfully I use cry/sob.

 

Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to get thyroid tilt and thick folds (modal voice) at the same time?

The release that is being discussed does not appear by applying more effort, but rather by reducing it.

Two questions (in one): how are your soft, twangy onsets in the middle modal voice?

[gno]

CT=cricothyroid?

 

It is my understanding that while the tilt does tend to thin the folds, it can be independent of "body cover" (thick/thin, loud/soft, etc.) and is responsible for the clarity and "sweet" quality that many operatic singers have even while singing very loud.

 

Yes - around here we use CT for Cricothyroid and TA for Thyroarytenoid.

 

What I believe we're talking about is the ability to "release" into an M2 configuration, where there vibratory mass is significantly reduced, but with nearly the same adduction as in M1 (thick fold) - the result is what sounds like a continuation of chest voice into the 5th octave. The switch point between M1 and M2 is very wide.  With the vowels "Oh" and "Eh" males can carry M1 up to C5.  Because you can keep the adduction nearly the same between the two, you can be very loud (or soft) with M2 and make the difference in tone nearly imperceptible.  Twang helps to keep the tone and intensity the same.  

[Martin H]

The thyroid tilt mainly controls pitch. Whether or not it's involved in tone quality is highly debatable since a lengthening (increased tension) of the vocal folds without a raise in pitch would require a simultaneous lessening of the internal tension (TA). And that would demand some insanely precise motor control.

 

I'm actually not aware of any scientific research in regards to voice quality and the various tilts explained by EVT.

[Robert Lunte]

Train and get stronger and more coordinated. Then you will have more command and control over your voice.

Looking for that one secret tip or piece of advise that is going to make your voice do what you want it to do, without practicing, is just going to leave

You chasing your tail endlessly... Train!

[cantando]

Cantando, Im referring to training techniques in the TVS program, "The Four Pillars of Singing"... also, you are my student/customer, are you not?  I just realized that... that makes me even more interested in training with you and helping you. It should not be that difficult for you... someone that has that much Estillian experience and is a teacher... to be able to make their figures?  I hope we can get a chance to work on some lessons, because I want to see what your doing that is preventing you from doing the EVTS figures, they should be relatively easy.

 

If you have TFPOS as I suspect you do... go to the the twang information in the book and watch the videos on vocal twang. Try the "Supplemental Onsets" for Edging Vowels in the program as well... they should help engage your "tilt"...  

 

Are you asking if I'm signed up for your program? No, I'm not. I'm very curious about what you're talking about. I would love for you to help me in whatever way you think you could, but I'm really pretty poor right now unfortunately. 

 

What is TFPOS?

 

Oh, I should of been more clear on that... lip trills are great... but NO, they are not preferred for cricoid or thyroid tilt... for that, you should do "resonant tracking" or train on nasal consonants... /m/, /n/, /ng/.

 

That's what I thought. In my last lesson, my teacher gave me an exercise to work on the tilt that involves sliding between 5ths and octaves on /ng/ in thin, trying to get as much tilt as possible. But as I said before, I seem to only be able to make it happen on my softest thin, and no louder. I've been practicing like this and experimenting with variations every day for several weeks, and it doesn't seem to be helping much at all.

 

I have a question, though... Can you siren in falsetto or light full voice?

 

Not sure exactly what you're asking. Can I siren in falsetto or "light full voice" (you mean like a thinner thick/mix?) without a break throughout my range? Well, no not really.

 

The release that is being discussed does not appear by applying more effort, but rather by reducing it.

Two questions (in one): how are your soft, twangy onsets in the middle modal voice?

 

Reducing effort? Where, exactly? I assume you're talking about reducing effort in something other than the tilt? The teacher I've studied with always stresses that the problem is in maintaining the effort levels, and that the thyroid tilt takes a great deal of muscular effort.

 

I still don't have a very reliable clean softer/thinner thick middle range, unfortunately, which is apparently because I don't have any significant thyroid tilt in my modal voice. I can do the twang pretty well, which took a long time and very hard work to get worked into my entire range and without the high larynx "duck"-like sound.

 

The thyroid tilt mainly controls pitch. Whether or not it's involved in tone quality is highly debatable since a lengthening (increased tension) of the vocal folds without a raise in pitch would require a simultaneous lessening of the internal tension (TA). And that would demand some insanely precise motor control.

 

I'm actually not aware of any scientific research in regards to voice quality and the various tilts explained by EVT.

 

The thyroid tilt affects pitch because it pulls the folds tighter, but it doesn't control it. The arytenoids do that.

 

Estill is based entirely on scientific research. I took two courses in it, and they even showed us endoscope and MRI footage of thyroid and cricoid tilts occurring, and the resulting tone color is both audible and visible on a spectrogram. The thyroid tilt creates a distinctive "sweet" and clear quality with lessened interharmonic noise, in any range and register.

 

Train and get stronger and more coordinated. Then you will have more command and control over your voice.

Looking for that one secret tip or piece of advise that is going to make your voice do what you want it to do, without practicing, is just going to leave

You chasing your tail endlessly... Train!

 

I wasn't looking for a magic bullet or some way to avoid having to practice. I'm a musician with 2 and a half music degrees, I know better. I just wanted to see if anyone could suggest any ways to train thyroid tilt into my thick "full voice", that's all.

[Robert Lunte]

My apologies, I thought you were my student... TFPOS is short hand for "The Four Pillars of Singing", the TVS training program.

 

The best way to train tilt is through training onsets, specific twang techniques and  training certain vowels that engage the glottis more then others.  As a coach, in order to apply the right techniques, I would need to hear you.

[m.i.r.]

The teacher I've studied with always stresses that the problem is in maintaining the effort levels, and that the thyroid tilt takes a great deal of muscular effort.

That is absolutely the opposite feeling of "tilting". The whole point of bridging, tilting, ect...is to shed the weight and muscled feeling. Want to drag your chest up super high in the mix, sure you will have the heavy muscular feeling. You can keep turning the fattest bass string further and further to raise the pitch. However, eventually something is gonna give and break. But you start using the thinner strings on the neck, and you have a higher pitch safely, as well as more reliable. It also still keeps the bass like qualities.

Kinda same thinking with using the ct to adjust tuning in a sense. I would really double check with your teacher about the whole muscled approach. If that is what he or she meant, then i would maybe start looking around for another teaching method. That just sounds like trouble to me, but you know what they say about opinions.

Just seems everyone wants to produce the biggest, fattest tone all through the range. Just listen to a piano, it thins as it raises in pitch....all instruments do..its basic acoustics. So let the voice do it too....i think its cool to hear the different dynamics of good singers voices from low to high. Plus it takes away the monotony of hearing the same timber through an entire album.

[Robert Lunte]

 

 

Just seems everyone wants to produce the biggest, fattest tone all through the range. Just listen to a piano, it thins as it raises in pitch....all instruments do..its basic acoustics. So let the voice do it too....i think its cool to hear the different dynamics of good singers voices from low to high. Plus it takes away the monotony of hearing the same timber through an entire album.

 

Amen to that brother... students of singing have been led to believe that there is something wrong with different kinds of sound colors in the voice. Its amazing how people can be "washed" to believe only one ideal.