So exactly how do you use downwards support?

[Stan]

This is one of the most asked questions in the world of singing, I do apologize for being the 5,000th person to ask...I tried searching but I never got the answer I wanted.

Basically, what I was taught was...the moment you begin to sing, add a downwards push...and whenever you want to sing higher, louder or with grit, push down some more. Is this correct?

I've tried to see if I was doing it right by making a little experiment...I would place one hand under my belly (on the gut), and place the other hand on my diaphragm (right below the chest). As I sang, I pushed down with my butt, and felt my diaphragm slightly "pop out" and the muscle in my gut pop out as well. Is this the correct technique?

Some people mentioned that support is a constant movement? Does that mean you're always changing the downwards pressure?... Wouldn't it make sense to change it only when you need to rather than constantly? Unless of course I'm misunderstanding something.

I hope I'm doing it right. Because this has almost become second nature to me, and I would hate to re-learn everything.

Thanks a lot, guys. I really appreciate your help!

[VideoHere]

This is one of the most asked questions in the world of singing, I do apologize for being the 5,000th person to ask...I tried searching but I never got the answer I wanted.

Basically, what I was taught was...the moment you begin to sing, add a downwards push...and whenever you want to sing higher, louder or with grit, push down some more. Is this correct?

I've tried to see if I was doing it right by making a little experiment...I would place one hand under my belly (on the gut), and place the other hand on my diaphragm (right below the chest). As I sang, I pushed down with my butt, and felt my diaphragm slightly "pop out" and the muscle in my gut pop out as well. Is this the correct technique?

Some people mentioned that support is a constant movement? Does that mean you're always changing the downwards pressure?... Wouldn't it make sense to change it only when you need to rather than constantly? Unless of course I'm misunderstanding something.

I hope I'm doing it right. Because this has almost become second nature to me, and I would hate to re-learn everything.

Thanks a lot, guys. I really appreciate your help!

on man. this topic has as many opinions attached to it as does the cvt-tvs-sls methodologies.

i like you, have read so many conflicting p.o.v.'s......

yes, breath support can be intensified if need be depending on the requirements of a song.

maintaining it properly through a song takes a lot of strain off your vocal mechanism, throat etc.

the moment you begin to sing, add a downwards push

[to this i would say no, but run it past the instructors, this way we can both learn ...lol!!!

[Steven Fraser]

on man. this topic has as many opinions attached to it as does the cvt-tvs-sls methodologies.

i like you, have read so many conflicting p.o.v.'s......

yes, breath support can be intensified if need be depending on the requirements of a song.

maintaining it properly through a song takes a lot of strain off your vocal mechanism, throat etc.

the moment you begin to sing, add a downwards push

[to this i would say no, but run it past the instructors, this way we can both learn ...lol!!!

Stan, Bob: IMO, this is a legacy of the 'do this because this is how I feel when I sing' pedagogy, which has been passed on from singer/teacher to singer without much understanding of what the motion was for. I would put 'sing like you are birthing a baby', or gird your loins as if you were about to lift a heavy weight', or 'feel like you are on the commode' , or 'flop out your belly' in the same category. 'Kinda' right, but leaving out some important details.

IMO, unless explained well, these approaches lead to overdoing... doing too much of a good thing. I think there are other approaches equally productive, and much less prone to being overdone.

The good thing... getting the diaphragm involved in managing the breath energy, so that only the right amount is delivered to the level of the larynx for the note, vowel and volume being performed. There are bodily sensations which occur, more subtle than the terms capture, which the singer can associate with the well-made note as they become more familiar. IMO, thats the direction to head toward, from wherever the singer may start.

[Snorth]

Stan, Bob: IMO, this is a legacy of the 'do this because this is how I feel when I sing' pedagogy, which has been passed on from singer/teacher to singer without much understanding of what the motion was for. I would put 'sing like you are birthing a baby', or gird your loins as if you were about to lift a heavy weight', or 'feel like you are on the commode' , or 'flop out your belly' in the same category. 'Kinda' right, but leaving out some important details.

IMO, unless explained well, these approaches lead to overdoing... doing too much of a good thing. I think there are other approaches equally productive, and much less prone to being overdone.

Definitely agree with this! I managed to confuse myself with this and the result was "false support"(Tightening your abdominals really hard) because of trying to imitate others feelings.

[VideoHere]

Stan, Bob: IMO, this is a legacy of the 'do this because this is how I feel when I sing' pedagogy, which has been passed on from singer/teacher to singer without much understanding of what the motion was for. I would put 'sing like you are birthing a baby', or gird your loins as if you were about to lift a heavy weight', or 'feel like you are on the commode' , or 'flop out your belly' in the same category. 'Kinda' right, but leaving out some important details.

IMO, unless explained well, these approaches lead to overdoing... doing too much of a good thing. I think there are other approaches equally productive, and much less prone to being overdone.

The good thing... getting the diaphragm involved in managing the breath energy, so that only the right amount is delivered to the level of the larynx for the note, vowel and volume being performed. There are bodily sensations which occur, more subtle than the terms capture, which the singer can associate with the well-made note as they become more familiar. IMO, thats the direction to head toward, from wherever the singer may start.

as always steve, appreciated!

[ronws]

The diaphragm is an inhalation muscle.

[Stan]

Thanks for the responses! So, ....you just pretend like you're squeezing a sweet one? ....(taking a crap, that is) :)

[Steven Fraser]

Thanks for the responses! So, ....you just pretend like you're squeezing a sweet one? ....(taking a crap, that is)

Stan: I'll have to add that one to the list.

[Steven Fraser]

The diaphragm is an inhalation muscle.

ronws: I think so, too. Did someone say that it was not?

[jonpall]

Thanks for the responses! So, ....you just pretend like you're squeezing a sweet one? ....(taking a crap, that is)

Stan, Steven Fraser and most of us here, including me, are advocating AGAINST that downwards push that f.ex. Jamie Vendera talks about. Sorry, Jamie. For the record, I think Jamie Vendera's book "Raise your voice" (2nd edition) is one of the best rock/metal vocal instructionals out there. That downwards push is perhaps the only thing that I disagree with from that book and it's not just my own personal opinion. I got it from asking lots of people, some who supported the downwards push and some who didn't and came to my own conclusion. Other people might come to a different one. And I might even change my mind about this in the future, who knows. Also, realize that the downwards push is actually an attempt to teach a correct way of breathing and it works if you do it absolutely correctly, like Jamie must be doing - otherwise he wouldn't have that powerhouse voice of his. I've heard that most people will, however, do it incorrectly and would be better off by letting the body itself figure out how much push is needed by keeping their rib cage from dropping, like I describe below. I believe that pushing down, like going to the bathroom, CONCIOUSLY can create constriction in the throat.

Here's what I do. It's kind of a simplified way of what Steven Fraser told me in a few posts on this forum and also what you can read about in the CVT book:

When I inhale, I just LET the air in my mouth and lungs. I don't suck it in - I do it at a speed that comes completely naturally and easy to my body. I don't raise my shoulders and my stomach moves out by itself when I do this.

After I'm done inhaling (which I didn't do too fast, nor too slow or long), I sing a note. When I do it, my main concern is to make sure that my rib cage stays still - in other words that it doesn't drop down. That's really it. While I'm doing this, my stomach region (which includes your lower sides and lower back) goes slowly in, by itself. I don't MAKE it go in, or MAKE it go down or anything. It seems that the body iself knows best just how fast the stomach region should go in for the given pitch, vowel and volume. If you try to conciously control how fast it goes in, or down, the breath pressure onto the vocal folds will be sub-optimal, i.e. too much or too little, and such a thing could lead to constriction and even vocal damage. That's what's meant by support being a constant movement - you will feel a constant outward movement of your solar plexus and an inward movement of your abs if you support correctly. And when you increase the pitch and/or volume, the support will increase in the sense that you will FEEL your body working harder to keep this sensation of your ribs being still and your stomach going in. But, again, you don't conciously put any extra push for those high notes. Your body will do it for you, if you focus on that still, "noble chest", as some describe it. It's no wonder opera singers usually look like their sticking their chests forwards - well, their supporting correct, at least most of them. Finally, remember that the whole point of support is to supply your vocal folds with a steady stream of very little air flow - to be more precise - exactly the correct amount of air pressure needed for the current pitch, vowel and volume.

Steven, or anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Stan]

Thanks, Jonpall. But how is it that you're singing from the diaphragm then?

I mean, I've been using Jaime's technique for a while so every other method of support sounds really foreign to me... I just don't know if there's really one correct way of doing it.

So far, I got.... inhale, expand ribs, sing, maintain expanded ribs?

[jonpall]

Thanks, Jonpall. But how is it that you're singing from the diaphragm then?

I mean, I've been using Jaime's technique for a while so every other method of support sounds really foreign to me... I just don't know if there's really one correct way of doing it.

So far, I got.... inhale, expand ribs, sing, maintain expanded ribs?

You're singing from your diaphragm because by keeping your ribs expanded you slow your diaphragm's natural tendency to rise up too fast during exhalation and sung notes.

You got it pretty much correctly in your last scentence. However, note that during inhalation, your ribs will expand on their own - do NOT expand them specifically. The incoming air will simply push it out. Then, during the sung note, keep your ribs/chest still - don't let it drop. You've got it!

[Stan]

Alright, I get it. But how do I maintain the expanded ribs? That's a little hard.

And what do I do when I need more power or energy?

Thanks. I think I'm finally gonna stop crapping in my pants at band practice.

[jonpall]

Stan, I think the answer to both of those question is just "think about it". To explain further, for your first question - just think "keep ribs expanded, keep ribs expanded". It's not really more complicated than a child playing with holding his/her breath and talking at the same time. Stereotypical Italians seem to do similar things Just don't overdo it to the point of constricting your throat or, more extreme - passing out due to lack of oxygen. You'll find out that by doing this, your brain automatically sends messages to your abdominal region to contract with the exact correct amount of force for the note you want to produce - especially once you gain more experience with this. And how do you get more energy - just think "more energy" Then you'll feel - if you pay attention to it - that your abdominal region (which is the core of your support system) starts to contract a bit harder, in order to keep your ribs expanded for a high and/or loud note.

Try this out, but if it works better for you to "crap your pants" - seriously, then do that instead. Whatever feels and works the best for you is what's right for you. Cheers, man :)

[Stan]

Thanks, Jonpall. I think I get it. I may start using this method. Maintaining the ''taking a crap'' hold is kinda annoying... i'd rather just inhale, expand the ribs, and only push down (or focus on the gut) when i need more power. But to maintain that hold from when I start singing... I dunno, I don't want all that focus on my butt but on my voice instead. :)

[jonpall]

I'm saying don't even push down when you need more power! Don't EVER do it. Well, if it works for you and you don't constrict your throat, then it's probably ok. But I recommend NEVER pushing down - well, not conciously. You see, your abs kind of do that THEMSELVES on high and powerful notes if you focus on keeping your ribs still. Your abs HAVE TO work and contract harder in order to keep your ribs still on those high notes and to supply less and less air as you get higher in pitch.

This is just my opinion and it would be really cool if Steven Fraser could read it over because a lot of it is based on his writings here :)

[Stan]

Wow, so all the focus is on the ribs then...

[jonpall]

Yeah, but wait for Steven to confirm or deny this and also take care not to raise your shoulders during inhaling and also note that even though you're focusing on your ribs, the muscles on top of your ribs should not be contracting - only the muscles of your abs, lower sides and lower back, which, interestingly enough, are the muscles that actually keep your rib cage elevated. So take care not to tense your rib cage itself, is what I'm saying :)

[Stan]

But how do you focus the sound into the palate then? When I use the ribs, I don't feel like my voice is out of my throat... unless I'm totally doing it wrong.

[jonpall]

And note that for support, I'd focus mostly on your ribs, but for SINGING, there's lots more to focus on than just breath support, f.ex. twanging enough, putting a "hold/cry" on your voice when/if you want to, lifting your larynx when you go up in pitch but not TOO much, etc. ... So support is just one small piece of the puzzle.

[jonpall]

Here's a trick to get your sound into the palate - try putting your sound in the FRONT area of your throat (the opposite of where you want to eventually put it). Then see if you can't move it back (into your soft palate) and then front, alternatively. Basically try doing it the "wrong" way to figure out where the "right" spot is It worked for me.

[Stan]

Forgot to ask, how do I maintain the expanded ribs? Do I inhale and just sing and let them release on their own or is there something I do to keep them up?

[jonpall]

No, you already asked a few posts above and I already answered. But again, it would be cool to hear Steven Fraser's comments on this :)

[Stan]

Oh, right. Nevermind, just saw it, lol. This method of support is much easier... but it's gonna take some time for me to get used to it.

[Steven Fraser]

Oh, right. Nevermind, just saw it, lol. This method of support is much easier... but it's gonna take some time for me to get used to it.

Stan, Jonpall: I feel like I've been called out I hope that the following explanation will be helpful to you both.

Jonpall: your earlier, full description with very close to what I would have written, with some small differences.

First, I am much more likely to describe what to do, or what happens, but not so much how it _feels_ to the person doing it. I certainly would say how it feels to me, for reference, but I would not impose the expectation that someone else would experience the same sensations. From my perspective, sensation _follows_ function, not the other way around. In other words, learn to do it right, then figure out how it feels to _you_, so you can tell when you are doing it well.

While there are a number of metaphors used by successful singing teachers, they all deal with the same physical reality, which is that there must be coordination of laryngeal muscle action, vowel formation (resonance) and breath energy for the voice to be free and full-ranged. When it comes to breath energy, the core idea is to limit the bodily motions of exhalation to those which can be managed by the diaphragm. Other motions which pump air from the body, useful for muscular exertion, cannot be managed by the diaphragm, so they put extra breath energy directly on the vocal bands.

In general, any motion which causes the chest cavity to expand will cause inhalation. When such a motion occurs, it lowers the air pressure in the lungs, and outside air comes in.

The motions of inhalation are:

1) Flexing of the diaphragm, resulting in a downward and forward motion. This increases the vertical dimension of the chest by lowering the bottom.

2) raising the sternum, which increases the vertical dimension of the chest by increasing the diameter of the upper portion, and is usually coordinated with

3) widening the rib expansion side-to-side. This increases the diameter of the chest cavity.

Inhalation motion 1 displaces the abdominal organs, and stores energy by stretching the abdominal muscles. This energy is released during exhalation to a point of balance, and if exhalation is to continue, the abs must contract. This can be controlled by continued action of the diaphragm

Inhalation motion 2 and 3 cause stretch of muscles, and raise tissues to higher elevations against the force of gravity. When these motions are reversed, muscle stretch and gravity itself power the exhale, forces that the diaphragm cannot manage. It is for this reason that stabilizing the position of the sternum and the ribs, without rigidity, helps in breath management... it takes gravity out of the force equation. Also, the 'noble' chest-cage position gives the diaphragm better leverage for all of what it must do.

This is why 'diaphragmatic breathing' is advocated by singing teachers. Even if they don't know it, by maintaining posture, the motions of breathing are reduced toward simply diaphragm and abdominal and some other lower body motions. Especially important is how the diaphragm continues to be active during the exhalation while singing. If it feels like 'pushing down', to someone, I would not object. IMO, that is better than 'pushing up'. However, I think, however it may feel, that a better approach is to learn the sensation of the 'slow exhale', sometimes put in to the 'slow, moist fogging of glasses'.

Jonpall: As to your comment about the extra energy coming automatically just because you want to make more sound... I think that is an excellent idea, and a very good way to put it. As my former teacher used to say, 'the voice draws what breath it needs'. The energy is already there. You don't have to 'do' anything deliberate... your body just responds automatically by fine adjustment of the diaphragmatic and abdominal muscle action, in response to your desire.

Stan: As to your question about how to get the sound to 'focus' onto your palate. That is about resonance adjustment and frerquency content. Sensations of 'focus' are the result of action. In this case, a tone may feel that way when twang is present, and be even more prominient you are singing a well-shaped vowel. Not everyone will have the same sensations on this, but so many people do that it is reasonable to discuss it this way.

Those feelings are the result of high-frequency content in your voice, and can also be present when singing fairly heavily. So, the presence of them is not necessarily an indicator that the tone is great, just that it is energetic and contains strong high frequency content.

If you are interested in a fuller explanation of how to balance breath energy for phonation, I wrote a fairly lengthy article describing the exercise over in another thread, at http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/themodernvocalist/viewtopic.php?id=1140

Scroll down to post # 25 in the thread.

As a final note, in 'noble posture', sternum and rib position are not held rigidly, just enough to keep gravity at bay a bit. Even some of the _very_ finest singers can be seen re-lifting or re-expanding them at the end of long phrases. I've even seen some use a bit of shoulder raise from time to time during an inhale. As evidence of this, here is a video from a TV broadcast showing Swedish Tenor Jussi Bjoerling singing an aria from Gounod's Faust. You will see all the motions I just mentioned, but all of them are fairly subtle. FYI, this guy is likely one of the 3 or 4 finest classical tenors of the 20th century.