Help me understand my voice

[aravindmadis]

To all the wonderful folks who have the patience/interest and willingness to help people in this forum.. My advance thanks to anyone who reads and drops in a line or two.. 

 

I have read some very interesting thoughts around real voice hidden sometimes behind singers and how singers should avoid trying to sing differently from their spoken voice.  I realized this was a big issue for me because I have a tendency to make simple notes within my range too complicated, like for instance over supporting easy notes in the middle of my range.  

 

I started experimenting with my voice and trying to get a "closer to spoken" quality.  I also started with vocal workouts and for first time tried "The Hero" workout while observing the notes(on reaper DAW).. I think that my second passagio is at A#4 - B4

 

Consider this version of "let it be" that I recorded earlier(ignore pitch inaccuracies).  To me it sounds like I have a pretty baritone quality on the lower notes, but at the same time my G4-A4 sounds pretty full too.  I am absolutely not straining to sing these notes(the chorus).  

 

 

I have always been unable to address whether I have a low or a high voice.  Then I came across this article 

http://www.voiceteacher.com/leggiero_tenor.html

 

I thought this sentence sounded pretty accurate while describing my voice an I have always been confused about my voice(light or dark character and again high or low voice) - "many instructors hear this voice type as Baritone because the Leggiero Tenor usually has a strong and colorful chest register, often extending quite low".. 

 

1.  This combined with my second passagio break at A#4/B and I am reasonably sure my voice type sounds pretty close to the description of the"leggiero_tenor".. I understand this as a "Dark" and "High" male voice.. Is this correct/ 

 

2. What singers(contemporary rock/pop have similar type of voices)?  I am trying to understand what songs would suit me and I want to work on my strengths.. 

 

Personally the singers I relate to most are Freddie Mercury and Bruce Dickenson.. I feel with practice I can sing their songs easier than say singing Steve Perry or Paul Mc Cartney. 

 

[Owen Korzec]

just skimmed your post briefly - seems like you question is "should we sing like you speak"

The answer is that if you are a beginner (speaking in terms of technical ability - some "gifted" folks never experience this early stage of the learning curve thus the extreme success of SLS), when you begin training, sing like you speak won't work. It will just cause more trouble. The first 50% of learning to sing for people learning technique from scratch, is all about learning to sing UNLIKE you speak.
 

The better at singing you get the more your singing and speaking voice naturally converge - they both improve through simply training properly. The key is that once you get to the latter 50% of learning to sing - and don't get me wrong, some people start here, and other never get here because they don't work hard enough - but as soon as you pass a certain point, you will start being able to referencing speech as a positive sensation more and more and your singing will improve from intentionally trying to converge the naturalness of your speaking voice with it.

Does that make sense? Basically "sing like you speak" becomes more and more applicable and effective, the more advanced of a singer you are.

[Owen Korzec]

The other part of your post: worrying about your voice type. Don't bother. As soon as you label yourself you limit the possibilities of what you can improve on as a singer. So just try everything and see what works what doesn't and if a song doesn't work yet don't give up just keep practicing and going to great lengths to improve it. Meanwhile finding out your current best strengths as a singer is something that will become very obvious the more you present a variety of different sides of your voice to others and invite praise or criticism etc.

[aravindmadis]

just skimmed your post briefly - seems like you question is "should we sing like you speak"

Basically "sing like you speak" becomes more and more applicable and effective, the more advanced of a singer you are.

 

Hi Owen.  Thanks.  I have never been able to relate to the "sing like you speak" before.  But I am finding that thinking this way makes a big difference to ease of singing especially in lower notes, where I tend to have pitch issues.. I guess that makes me an advanced singer in your point of view

 

This brings in a different perspective altogether in singing.. There are some places where there is a big jump in skill immediately, but other places like I said, it is like back to the drawing board.. But I guess this is really important.. Whenever we see really great singers sing, they look like they could do it in their sleep and I really do believe it is that easy for them, given their skill.. I guess being able to start from a point of "spoken voice" is key to having that level of expertise..  

 

I have had issues, when I struggle with the "easy" portions of the song more than I should.  And I guess that this is due to a certain degree of artificiality in the way I sing and the "singing like you speak" approach should help here! 

[KillerKu]

In my opinion the answer to this question is every culture in the history of humanity speaks differently and individual within these cultures have variance too in speech patterns. They have different accents, different vowels, different breathing habits, laryngeal positioning, resonance usage, different breath phonation habits.

 

some are nasal (some Asian Cultures), some are twangy (some British, Southern United States), some are guttural (German), so I think it's just a dumb idea in every way you can spin it.

 

I think people should sing how they want to sing. If you want to sing more like Freddie Mercury and Bruce Dickenson, you should practice those goals. If you want to retain some of your cultural and personal heritage, you should work to keep those goals too. 

 

So basically: what do you want to sound like? Work on that. I have friends in other countries who I have helped a bit with singing, the idea that they should say 'dis or dat' instead of this or that and try to go on American Radio in ignorance is incredibly silly. So if you aren't coming from a native English country, it's even more ridiculous to sing English songs like you speak and expect it to sound marketable.

 

I sing exactly how I want to sing. I honestly don't care if a single person on the planet like it at this point, cause I don't care about climbing the charts and joining Miley Cyrus. More than enough singers sing conventionally so I'm just gonna sing exactly how I want.

 

If you have more commercial goals, you should probably work them in there. Or if you have a sound ideal, like want to sing in a Iron Maiden cover band and get it to work. You're going to need to nail Bruce pretty good. But basically, every singer on the planet has different goals. I ask people from other cultures what they want, do you want to sing with more western vowels and consants, timbre, or local vowels, consonants, and timbre when singing western songs?

 

Once people figure out what they want, they can start working on their goals. But telling them to sing like they speak at best often really frustrates people and makes them want to give up if it doesn't' sound the way they want. At worst it has people painfully straining and injuring themselves trying to force something that just doesn't work.

 

The only part of speech I consider more universally applicable, is inflection. Conversationally, people rise and fall in pitch, and place emphasis on certain words. Writing or singing melodies that fall into these patterns, and emphasizing parts of words that fall within these patterns is more broadly applicable and is used a lot in the arts.

[Owen Korzec]

Hey Aravind, as for low notes, it could be either issue. It could be that your speaking voice developed some problems over time and you have to train singing specifically to take you away from bad speaking habits and make it sound better down there. Or you could have very good speaking habits naturally and sing like you speak helps. Or some aspects of both. You'll have to experiment with both approaches and see what people like better.

[aravindmadis]

Hey Aravind, as for low notes, it could be either issue. It could be that your speaking voice developed some problems over time and you have to train singing specifically to take you away from bad speaking habits and make it sound better down there. Or you could have very good speaking habits naturally and sing like you speak helps. Or some aspects of both. You'll have to experiment with both approaches and see what people like better.

Could you elaborate on "good speaking habits"?  

[aravindmadis]

Killer, I am not referring to the diction or the accent when I say "sing with speaking voice".  I am referring to the possibility of exploring approaching songs from a tone that is very close/timbre to the individual's spoken voice.  I am finding that this instantly helps me sing lower notes with more weight.. Earlier I used to perhaps over support notes until it struck me that I should'nt have to struggle to sing any note, let alone notes which are not in the extremities and especially low notes which are not in passagio.  But starting from a spoken voice tone leads to other issues like having to unlearn and learn bridging again, but it is obviously much easier than having to learn to bridge for the first time

 

So if you aren't coming from a native English country, it's even more ridiculous to sing English songs like you speak and expect it to sound marketable.

 

 

[KillerKu]

Killer, I am not referring to the diction or the accent when I say "sing with speaking voice".  I am referring to the possibility of exploring approaching songs from a tone that is very close/timbre to the individual's spoken voice.  I am finding that this instantly helps me sing lower notes with more weight.. Earlier I used to perhaps over support notes until it struck me that I should'nt have to struggle to sing any note, let alone notes which are not in the extremities and especially low notes which are not in passagio.  But starting from a spoken voice tone leads to other issues like having to unlearn and learn bridging again, but it is obviously much easier than having to learn to bridge for the first time

 

People speak with varying larynx height, varying amounts of resonators open, varying amounts of support, varying fold tension, varying muscular activation in the larynx and its supporting muscles, varying nasality, varying twang, some speak more plaintively, some speak breathily, some speak with vocal fry, some speak with rasp found between vowels. People speak all vowels differently from culture to culture. 

 

All of these things combined resonating in the human body are composing timbre/tone. Your speaking voice could help you sing, but for most people they will likely encounter huge problems outside of their speaking range. Even non professionally trained singers like me had to learn to modify away from the speaking voice which would start straining at the bridge.

 

Talk singing is a great art form and I listen to talk singers quite a bit myself (it tends to function best for native languages, sadly), but if you're looking for more weight with less effort, you might want to look into opening up some of the resonators, particularly the pharynx. This will add a lot more weight for most people with less effort. I personally find singing low notes more relaxed if I open the pharynx more so than what would have been my traditional speaking voice. The sensation feels 'slightly wide' at the back of my throat. Not uncomfortably so, but gives effortless weight. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_resonation

 

I still talk sing to this day. Although I'm much more comfortable with more open throat techniques as my nerve is less agitated by them. Basically, what I'm getting at, is if you talk with an open boomy throat, somewhat supported tone, like some percent of the world's population already does speak (not all, or necessarily even a majority), it might help you find a weightier boomier effortless sound, but it's totally random. Where you grew up, where you're coming from, what your habits are. So if it's a sound you're interested in there might be an easier way that doesn't require redoing the entire bridge.

[Owen Korzec]

By good speaking habits I just mean speaking with good vocal technique. Where your air flow and cord closure is balance, you use support when you need to bring your voice louder or higher than comfortable, you have good twang in your tone, you use clean onsets, you speak in M1, you don't let your vowels get too nasal, you feel the resonance buzz around the face, you don't feel any neck/jaw/tongue/throat/shoulder/etc. tension...those are all parts of it, there are definitely more things I'm forgetting.
 

Obviously it's very rare that someone is going to be perfect at all of these. But if they practice correct singing technique a lot, their speaking voice will naturally pick up these habits. I think that's happened to some extent with myself.
 

[KillerKu]

By good speaking habits I just mean speaking with good vocal technique. Where your air flow and cord closure is balance, you use support when you need to bring your voice louder or higher than comfortable, you have good twang in your tone, you use clean onsets, you speak in M1, you don't let your vowels get too nasal, you feel the resonance buzz around the face, you don't feel any neck/jaw/tongue/throat/shoulder/etc. tension...those are all parts of it, there are definitely more things I'm forgetting.

 

Obviously it's very rare that someone is going to be perfect at all of these. But if they practice correct singing technique a lot, their speaking voice will naturally pick up these habits. I think that's happened to some extent with myself.

 

 

I think most singer's speaking voices will change to some degree from the acquired habits. Talk singing is a genre I quite like. Billie Holiday is great with like an octave or so.

 

But if he wants to sing Bruce Dickenson and Freddie Mercury and not Lou Reed, sing talking might be an easier path, as there's no knowing what habits are in the speech voice that will get trained into the singing.

[Sexy Beast]

First off: SLS does not mean sing as you speak!

 

Personally I will use this phrase when I feel someone's singing voice is fabricated. A lot of people will go into "singing mode". You should be able to tell it's the same person speaking and singing. There is a sweet spot in your voice where you're using it most efficiently, due to the nature of your instrument. You can color your voice for style and interpretation but it's important to know where your middle is. 

 

Some singers have made a career of their "singing mode" and that's fine too as long as they are happy with their sound and are able to keep good vocal health.

 

You can definitely tell a lot from someone's speaking voice. Whether you're dealing with a high/low voice, if the person is using it correctly...  I've met a lot of singers who have a nice depth to their voice but then they start singing and sound like their little brother. Some have a strong speaking voice and then they start singing and it's breathy. Some darken their tone way too much because they think it's how you're supposed to sing classical. The list goes on...

 

Consider this version of "let it be" that I recorded earlier(ignore pitch inaccuracies).  To me it sounds like I have a pretty baritone quality on the lower notes, but at the same time my G4-A4 sounds pretty full too.  I am absolutely not straining to sing these notes(the chorus).  

 

" title="External link">https://soundcloud.c...n/let-it-be-001

 

This sounds way more natural to me than your other covers.

[aravindmadis]

This sounds way more natural to me than your other covers.

 

Beast, I understand what you mean when you say "Fabricated"... I have been guilty of that.  And I understand that SLS does not mean "sing like you speak" in the strict sense.  I interpret it as stress free singing and is something that I can definitely use especially in the "easier" portions of songs. 

 

This cover I did yesterday after working on adjustments over the last couple of weeks with raising the soft palete, dropping the larynx(at least tried to) and making an effort to bring my voice closer to my spoken voice.. And special thanks to you for pointing this out in my last cover of "I want to know what love is". I could visualize and understand things in my singing in a manner I have never done before.  

[ronws]

Aran, in the clip of yours, you do not sound baritone to me, regardless of the actual note, Baritone is not just a range of notes, in my opinion, but also a sense of weight or fullness. To me, your voice has a tenor sound or weight, even if you can make a low note, something below C3, for example. And just because it might feel like a rumble of a note in your body does not make it baritone. A singer often cannot hear himself as others hear him.

 

To me, a baritone has a full low end. Though I could certainly be wrong. I am not a singing expert and certainly not an expert in opera, I do not sing opera, though I have sang some arias, just because I want to. And I created one in Spanish that was meant to be humorous. And, for that silly song, it sounds better in Spanish than in English.

 

The David Jones article you linked, I have read a few times before. And he raises a good point. A qualified teacher (in opera, which is my words,) would be best at assessing fach. And I agree with him in that leggiero tenors are often trained too thick in the voice to really take advantage of the range. Problem being, that the leggiero needs to thin out and that is hard to do if you have been training to "carry chest up." The part where it gets confusing in his article is where he worries about the use of or transition to falsetto. As long as the note is full and resiliant, who cares what it is?

 

To me, you cannot sing as you speak and much of the problem in singing is due to articulation and vowels. When you sing words the same way that you pronounce them while speaking that is what trips a person up. Especially an american, but, I am sure, others as well. Whether it's fair or not, italians and hawaiians have the best vowel use. Be like them when singing, regardless of genre, country, background, language, dialect.

 

That being said, I don't think that speach level singing is about singing the same way that you speak. I think it is about having the same ring and volume and clarity, if your spoken word has clarity, in singing as in speaking. The glaring exception is Ozzy Osbourne. He is much more articulate and understandable when singing. When he speaks, I can barely understand a word. 

 

So, if you think that changing vowels or where you feel the vowels is "fake," let me quote Jens. Your whole voice is fake. You did not grow up in a vacuum but with other humans and you mimicked them with not much of an intentional thought. Or you did it on purpose because they hammered on you until you sound just like them. Then it became a habit and you enjoyed the sweet relief of them NOT hounding on you for not sounding like them.

 

Singing would be a nice business if it were not for humans.

m/

[aravindmadis]

Ron.. I am pretty sure I am not a baritone or a "low voice".. The reason I am trying to understand my voice is because, I always seem to have a confusion on how to sing the song.. I can do a deep voice and a light voice and I get myself twisted in knots when singing a song that crosses the passagio for example.  The experiment with trying to have same volume as spoken volume gives me some options while singing. I am able to this way view singing as one single extension of my voice and I can see how I can do all my recordings differently and have a better sound color/tone.  

 

The point where it gets really tough for me is while singing through the second passagio into the fifth octave. I have been doing Rob's workouts and there is this workout called "hero" which I really like.. I find that while doing that I can after my second passagio break(at around A#4) create full sounding notes in the fifth octave upto E/Eb5.  I am pretty sure that it is not falsetto because falsetto has a thinner sound.  I will post a recording of me doing that workout and maybe I will be making myself clear.  

 

I need to understand my voice a little more deeply.. Like for e.g. the extent of darkness I can bring, the extent to which I can make my sound color light without getting a whiny sound, which part of the range would sound better with belting, or how to apply light mass co-ordination in my voice.. The last one especially is something I don't know how to do given the fullness of my voice.. 

 

We all have a wide range of colours in the human voice, and it is an incredibly versatile instrument by design.. I am trying to understand what sounds good with my voice to help me focus on it. I view this as a key next step in my journey

 

To me, your voice has a tenor sound or weight, even if you can make a low note, something below C3, for example. And just because it might feel like a rumble of a note in your body does not make it baritone. A singer often cannot hear himself as others hear him.

 

To me, a baritone has a full low end.  

 

The David Jones article you linked, I have read a few times before. And he raises a good point. A qualified teacher (in opera, which is my words,) would be best at assessing fach. And I agree with him in that leggiero tenors are often trained too thick in the voice to really take advantage of the range. Problem being, that the leggiero needs to thin out and that is hard to do if you have been training to "carry chest up." The part where it gets confusing in his article is where he worries about the use of or transition to falsetto. As long as the note is full and resiliant, who cares what it is? 

[Sexy Beast]

 

The experiment with trying to have same volume as spoken volume gives me some options while singing.

 

Usually you will have to sing louder than you speak.

[ronws]

We all have a wide range of colours in the human voice, and it is an incredibly versatile instrument by design.. I am trying to understand what sounds good with my voice to help me focus on it. I view this as a key next step in my journey

Agreed. And that is why the voice is the hardest thing to record. Most any other instrument has a certain timbre or general sound, with minor variances. But the human voice is capable of sounding like things other than the basic grunts and whistles we apes are usually making.