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Issues with timing

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KHP

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Hi,

 

As I mentioned in another thread, I am a complete beginner to singing and had my first lessons last week. In my recent lesson I've been having issues with timing. I remember when I used to have piano lessons (I only got to grade 1), I had the same issue, especially when playing with a metronome.

 

Basically when my singing teacher plays the piano and I try to sing a piece, I find it difficult to follow her. Does anyone have any basic tips for improving my timing?

 

Thanks!

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    I had a friend who had trouble dancing or clapping his hands in time with the music. He had no clue that the bass drum and snare was what keeps the timing for the band.

   I also have trouble when just using a metronome the click, click ,click is boring and sometimes the Rhythm needed is between the clicks. For normal radio tunes I imagine the drum beat while I am singing and playing. If you are using a backing track follow the drum beat.

  For those tunes that has drumming like a machine gun(I can't handle machine gun drumming), I have no clue unless the snare is steady.

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It can be very helpful to subdivide beats and learn to make sounds on each subvision.

 

Most popular music is in 4/4 time signature (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 and so on).

 

There are great, time tested ways of getting a feel for the subivision.

 

For eight notes (2 notes per): 1 and  2 and 3 and 4 and  

For sixteenth notes (4 notes per metronome click): 1 ee and a 2 ee and a 3 ee and a 4 ee and a

For triplets (3 notes per metronome click): 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a

 

There are also varying time signatures. The second most common is 3/4. Which is 1,2,3 ,1,2,3, and so on.

 

One of the things that helped me immensely with timing was drumming. Even keeping the beat with one hand while inserting a sound into a spacing with another hand (or voice) can help a lot to internalize rhythm. Poly-rhythms helped a whole lot.

 

But basically if you learn how to insert timings into the subdivisions intuitively and get it 'programmed' into your brain, it just flows. Each new concept (time signature, simultaneous movements) can trip you up, but the basics of subdividing the beat will get you pretty far.

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Ok this is interesting! I know pitch can be taught but what about rythm? Why do some people have absolutely no sense of rythm? They can't stay on beat when singing or playing an instrument, often they will even add or remove beats to a song. They have to count when we can just "feel it"?

 

What I really wanna know is: has anyone actually taught someone who had absolutely no sense of rythm and got him to a point where he/she could just stay on beat and feel the music?

 

 

Dance!

 

I wish it was that simple...

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Ok this is interesting! I know pitch can be taught but what about rythm? Why do some people have absolutely no sense of rythm? They can't stay on beat when singing or playing an instrument, often they will even add or remove beats to a song. They have to count when we can just "feel it"?

 

What I really wanna know is: has anyone actually taught someone who had absolutely no sense of rythm and got him to a point where he/she could just stay on beat and feel the music?

 

 

I wish it was that simple...

 

I think it's kind of like trying a new time signature on drums. I think it's possible for anyone to eventually play 7/8, 11/8 or whatever crazy prog signatures are out there. But 99 percent of drummers will get it wrong until they practice it.

 

Not everyone has subdivided the beats of popular music subconsciously, or had any kind of musical upbringing. I do believe it is trainable, it's just for whatever reason people absorb subdivision of a beat different amounts intuitively. Kind of like pitch.

 

Here's an example of what can happen when people feel out time:

 

 

That is in 9/8 time, and very subtly so.

 

Johnny put his cover in 4/4 time:

 

 

It would have been possible to train Johnny to handle a more sophisticated time signature, but it wouldn't have been Johnny. Simple was how he did things. That's who he was as an artist.

 

I like both versions, but prefer Sting there with his orchestra and the odd time. Many would prefer Cash's version, maybe in part cause they can 'feel it out' the same way he did.

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    Even in Stings performance there are Lines that you can follow that are in a more recognizable pattern. In that situation(Stings performance) I would have followed the rhythm and melody of the string instruments instead of the drums. I am more of a Johnny Cash kind of guy.

   To be honest in Johnnys' rendition I felt his pain. In Stings I listened to the story. Both were great.

   Whether you are singing to A piano or Orchestra or Metal Band with machine gunning drums there is always some element that you can follow. If the drums are confusing you listen to the rhythm guitar or just the high hat or find some element that keeps a uniform beat.

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Don't worry, you will learn it. I am a walking example that it's just about training. I was COMPLETELY out of rhythm when I started rapping. I had no idea how to follow or anticipate drums. I simply tried my best to sing good and after about a month I saw a small improvement. Overall, it took me about two years to get perfect in it. Now I can rap to any speed and drum combination you can come up with.

 

The reason I am great at it is the fact that I was terrible at it. Seriously, I became obsessed with being better, I couldn't stand being worse than some bad rappers in my city so I started practicing every single day for the first few months. It's so riddiculous to think where this need to be better than other people took me.

 

This is one of the reasons why sometimes people who are good at something from the start don't get perfect at it. They just don't have to dive into extreme details and basics during practice. It can leave a broken foundation under whatever you want to build on it.

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    Even in Stings performance there are Lines that you can follow that are in a more recognizable pattern. In that situation(Stings performance) I would have followed the rhythm and melody of the string instruments instead of the drums. I am more of a Johnny Cash kind of guy.

   To be honest in Johnnys' rendition I felt his pain. In Stings I listened to the story. Both were great.

   Whether you are singing to A piano or Orchestra or Metal Band with machine gunning drums there is always some element that you can follow. If the drums are confusing you listen to the rhythm guitar or just the high hat or find some element that keeps a uniform beat.

 

Yup, both are great and have appeal. It works to follow the easier sections if you have a backing track. When I tried to cover it with guitar and singing at the same time, I started turning into Johnny Cash pretty quickly. :P Couldn't count to 9 while syncopating guitar and vocals.

 

Sting is one of the best in the business for being able to play a separate bass line while singing an intricate line at the same time. He can do it even in complex meters. It was always something I wanted to get good at, but I got waylaid by other problems and had to give it up for many years. 

 

I'm back at it again though and am finding both vocals and guitar suffering. Having freedom to play and sing more independently is a lot more important to me than say vocal range in the grand scheme of things, cause it basically multiplies the amount of music I can output at any given time and would allow me to busk and support myself. For freedom of musical expression I think it's top on my list. A lot of times I just want to get more music out of my head.

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Ok this is interesting! I know pitch can be taught but what about rythm? Why do some people have absolutely no sense of rythm? They can't stay on beat when singing or playing an instrument, often they will even add or remove beats to a song. They have to count when we can just "feel it"?

 

What I really wanna know is: has anyone actually taught someone who had absolutely no sense of rythm and got him to a point where he/she could just stay on beat and feel the music?

 

 

I wish it was that simple...

 

 

My mother took up guitar recently at the age of 38...she had problem strumming the rythm...she would eat up or add a beat here and there...i advised her to sing the numbers instead of the lyrics...

 

Example: instead of singing "there's a lady whos sure all that glitters is gold" she would sing 1 2 3 4 while playing the song (chords)...but before that she had to find the tempo of the song on the internet and check apply the tempo to metronome...for example 100bmp add it to metronome and sing 1 2 3 4 with the ticks...so she memorised the speed and strummed acordingly...

 

little that u know, she started playing  great rythm a month later

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So counting 1,2,3,4 while playing helped her? But does she still need to count now or can she just feel it like the rest of us?

 

Absolutely feel it...she got the hang of the beat....for example, if i sing a song acapella, and there is a pause in singing "...gonna make u sweat, gonna make u groove" and then goes a little riff...she wouldnt be able to percieve how much she has to wait until the riff is over and wouls start singing before me...but not anymore, she gets it spot on...even if she does make a mistake she notices it without me pointing the mistake

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Absolutely feel it...she got the hang of the beat....for example, if i sing a song acapella, and there is a pause in singing "...gonna make u sweat, gonna make u groove" and then goes a little riff...she wouldnt be able to percieve how much she has to wait until the riff is over and wouls start singing before me...but not anymore, she gets it spot on...even if she does make a mistake she notices it without me pointing the mistake

Don't just quote one part of one lyric from "Black Dog." Now, you need to cover the whole song and post it.

:D

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