My Big Decision

[Nathan]

So very soon I hope to attend a music university. I'm from the UK and am thinking either The Academy of Contemporary Music (ACM) or The Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts (LIPA) - I'm leaning towards LIPA after learning that it was originally opened by Sir Paul McCartney, very cool!

For these places, your voice needs to be at an incredible level... to be honest, I don't think I have what it takes. I've been working incredibly hard, but I don't know if I'm going to have the ability. I need to get my application finished by May 2011, including a demo and some sample exercises. I'm very worried neither of these will accept me. If I cannot even get into these places, then do I really have a future as a professional singer? I'm thinking not so much.

So basically, I'm giving myself until new years day, 2011. I'm working incredibly hard each day until then. After then, if my voice still isn't up to scratch I'm going to focus entirely on bass guitar. I've always been okay at bass guitar and with just a few months continuous practice I could probably be quite good. With help from my friends (currently bass teachers at our old school) I could gain a reasonable amount of skill. I honestly feel that if I had spent even half of the amount of time playing bass that I had working on voice I'd be at a high standard.

I think that the difference between voice and other instruments is that other instruments have a formula for learning, that anyone can follow and not go wrong. Whereas with voice, it seems that its more hit and miss. Try one technique, if that doesn't work then move on. I guess it also depends on your actual voice, so that may have left me in a bad position.

So yeah, until Jan 01, 2011 I'll be continuously working on it. I'll probably post some samples on this thread soon so that you guys can offer your advice. No idea how long that'll take... Insurance people still have my laptop, which has all the recording stuff. But when I can post I will.

You guys understand this isn't me quitting... It's just, I have to focus on something that can hopefully give means to eat/pay rent/survive etc =]

[Douglas]

If I cannot even get into these places, then do I really have a future as a professional singer? I'm thinking not so much.

Hi Nathan,

I am learning to sing, and not an expert, but I thought that perhaps some of the information I discovered would be of use to you as well.

One part of your question reminded me of a recent discussion I was having with some family members about three music schools we have in the State that I live in the US. The story is sort of funny but proves a point. The schools involved were the Easteman School of Music at the University of Rochester, NYU Tisch School of the Arts and the Juiliard School.

My mother was of the opinion that in order to be a successful singer it was very important to go to one of the very best schools. She belives that Juiliard and Easteman are two of the best. She shared that Mick Jagger and Lady Gaga had both gone to the Juiliard School. Which she felt proved her point.

I suppose this would be good evidence that such training was helpful except for one thing. Neither Mick Jagger nor Lady Gaga nor any other highly successful pop singer that I have been able to identify, went to Juiliard. Google searches turned up lots of actors, musical theater stars and the like that did go there, just no rock or pop singers that I could find. Actually Mick Jagger went to the London School of Economics and did not study music there. And though Lady Gaga did go to school in New York City it was at NYU and it seems she was at the Tisch School of the Arts where they have film and acting, not Steinhardt where they teach music. (Tisch does have, the Clive Davis Department of Recorded Music which I think is more about producing and business etc.) So at least in terms of going to the most prestigious voice programs in the USA, it seems that there is little correlation between attending and becoming a pop or rock singer. (This is likely not true if you are hoping to do musical theater, or opera.) Perhaps this is also true in the UK?

Thanks so much.

Doug

[Steven Fraser]

Hi Nathan,

I am learning to sing, and not an expert, but I thought that perhaps some of the information I discovered would be of use to you as well.

One part of your question reminded me of a recent discussion I was having with some family members about three music schools we have in the State that I live in the US. The story is sort of funny but proves a point. The schools involved were the Easteman School of Music at the University of Rochester, NYU Tisch School of the Arts and the Juiliard School.

My mother was of the opinion that in order to be a successful singer it was very important to go to one of the very best schools. She belives that Juiliard and Easteman are two of the best. She shared that Mick Jagger and Lady Gaga had both gone to the Juiliard School. Which she felt proved her point.

I suppose this would be good evidence that such training was helpful except for one thing. Neither Mick Jagger nor Lady Gaga nor any other highly successful pop singer that I have been able to identify, went to Juiliard. Google searches turned up lots of actors, musical theater stars and the like that did go there, just no rock or pop singers that I could find. Actually Mick Jagger went to the London School of Economics and did not study music there. And though Lady Gaga did go to school in New York City it was at NYU and it seems she was at the Tisch School of the Arts where they have film and acting, not Steinhardt where they teach music. (Tisch does have, the Clive Davis Department of Recorded Music which I think is more about producing and business etc.) So at least in terms of going to the most prestigious voice programs in the USA, it seems that there is little correlation between attending and becoming a pop or rock singer. (This is likely not true if you are hoping to do musical theater, or opera.) Perhaps this is also true in the UK?

Thanks so much.

Doug

Doug: how about Jane Morgan, Kristin Hoffman, Stephanie Reese, divankenge, Gina Hiraizumi, Mario Frangoulis, Micheal Castaldo, Barry Manilow, & Neil Sedaka?

[Douglas]

Doug: how about Jane Morgan, Kristin Hoffman, Stephanie Reese, divankenge, Gina Hiraizumi, Mario Frangoulis, Micheal Castaldo, Barry Manilow, & Neil Sedaka?

Hi Steven,

Though I did have to look all but Barry Manilow and Neil Sedaka up, to find out who they were, I will freely admit I am not a particularly well qualified judge of who a "highly successful pop singer" is and indeed Barry and Neil were pretty iconic.

Thanks for the correction.

Doug

[ronws]

I think that Douglas was just trying to point out that successful pop and rock singers did not go to such schools as Julliard. Which is not to deny respect or credit to those schools. And I've never thought Mick Jagger had a pretty voice. In fact, it could be pretty harsh, at times, which fit in with the Rolling Stones bad boy image. As for a school started by Sir McCartney, I would hope they would grant students a variety of voices, just as McCartney was not always singing like one should in the old school method. In fact, I would say that the choruses of "Hey Jude" would be antithetical to what the traditional schools teach.

And if Nathan could make a living playing bass, he could make one singing, too. I invite anyone to listen to Tone Loc's first album. Yeah, I know it's rap. And it sold a bunch of copies. How about Kid Rock? He can actually sing but I think he made more money when he was screaming "American Bad-ass."

Or more to the point, going to such schools doesn't guarantee success and not going to such schools doesn't guarantee failure. What is the audience buying? Right now, it might be Lady Gaga. But they also bought AC/DC. And Bob Dylan. There's even a market for screamo, which is not necessarily taught as a style at traditional schools of music.

[Matt]

That Jagger didnt go to juilliard is probably in their favor.

[ronws]

That Jagger didnt go to juilliard is probably in their favor.

http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot

[Steven Fraser]

I think that Douglas was just trying to point out that successful pop and rock singers did not go to such schools as Julliard. Which is not to deny respect or credit to those schools. And I've never thought Mick Jagger had a pretty voice. In fact, it could be pretty harsh, at times, which fit in with the Rolling Stones bad boy image. As for a school started by Sir McCartney, I would hope they would grant students a variety of voices, just as McCartney was not always singing like one should in the old school method. In fact, I would say that the choruses of "Hey Jude" would be antithetical to what the traditional schools teach.

Yeah, I know. Juilliard is far more likely to be a place to study classical music than pop or rock.

[Nathan]

My overall point is that if I can't even make it into one of those schools, do I really have any chance? I'm not tsaying you're guaranteed success either way, but if I cannot even impress 'judges' or the admissions board (I'm not sure what they'd be called) then how can I impress an audience?

I know there is much money to be made screaming/rapping also... But I can't really do those either. I'm not sure what it is, my voice just doesn't sound right... Even in speech. I wish I had the means to upload a clip, but currently I am not able.

FYI, Jagger apparently used to be an a capella singer, but one day playing basketball he managed to bite off some of his own tongue, which ruined his career. Then a friend told him about the rock band who were looking for a singer, which became The Rolling Stones. So for all of the criticism he takes, I guess that is kinda impressive (if it's true, lol).

[Matt]

Huh? Im pretty sure that hes still got his tongue. That he sings completely from the throat wouldnt be caused by a decimated tongue anyway

[Marcus]

I think you should not give up on a career as a singer just because some schools would not accept you. Sure it could be great to attend some schools, and you'll get lessons with vocal coaches and meet a lot of people who probably will be "in the business" in the future. But making it into the school isn't just depending on your level as a singer - it's what they are looking for in particualar style and character of the students, and it also depends on the competition you will meet by other attendants.

The voice is an instrument that you can develop almost endlessly, and if the case would be that you doesn't have what it takes this year you can put in a lot of effort with vocal practice and make a new audition next year. Some singers didn't make it in the business until late in their lives, and it's no shame in that! And you don't have to have a fancy school to teach you how to sing, you can take private lessons and there's a lot you can do on your own with practice, practice, practice. There's a lot of good vocal programs to follow and books to read. Heck - you might even realize that you don't need to attend any school after practicing. Just showing people a deploma won't give you a job, you just have to prove yourself with vocal skill.

A lot of singers have never had any "proper" training at all, and they are still big stars. They were just singing along to their favourite songs, and then joining some local band that made it big. And in my opinion some of the big pop stars aren't very good singers, it's not ALL the audience wants, it's a lot about stage personality, and making it big with a band kinda takes some luck too I guess.

Myself I do have two years of professional education in musical theatre, but what made me get jobs in the business was putting in a lot of practice on my own. My vocal teacher at the school told me I was a basso/baritone - end of story. But I wanted to achieve a tenor voice as well, wich i did after about a year of practice on my own. Before having a tenor range, I felt it was hard to get jobs other that ensemble/choir as a basso/baritone, but after achieving a tenor range as well I landed a lot more jobs: a showgroup, some teaching jobs (vocal coach/rock band coach), and at the moment I'm working as an entertainer in Cyprus, 5 shows a week with a lot of solo songs. I finally feel I'm getting somewhere, and the pay is good as well. The school was great for giving me acting classes, dancing classes, vocal pracitce routines, meeting people in the business and giving me confidence on the stage. But it was the time I put in on my own after the school that gave me a voice able to land jobs I really wanted. The school was a great start, I don't regret attending it, but it's not essential for landing jobs. And when you do get jobs in the business, you learn a lot of things that a school can't really teach you.

Damn this became a long post... to sum it up: don't give up on singing just because a school won't accept you. School dimploma is not essential, your determination and skill as a singer is. You can make it if you want to.

[Nathan]

So I finally have my own laptop back. Yay!

I recorded 2 clips... They are both very short and pretty awful.

Knockin on heavens door (excuse my awful guitar playing in this one)

http://www.box.net/shared/pdelhb68zn

and War Pigs

http://www.box.net/shared/de7prnya4n

Be absolutely honest, should I stop trying right now?

[VideoHere]

So I finally have my own laptop back. Yay!

I recorded 2 clips... They are both very short and pretty awful.

Knockin on heavens door (excuse my awful guitar playing in this one)

http://www.box.net/shared/pdelhb68zn

and War Pigs

http://www.box.net/shared/de7prnya4n

Be absolutely honest, should I stop trying right now?

nathan,

saying this as a kind gesture, you need a boost of self esteem.

your self image is seriously important to your singing.

if your goal is the "big time", there's got to be passion and believing in yourself.

[Nathan]

It's not a lack of belief really. It's just, well it obviously wasn't great. I need serious advice to make this work. I know the whole "be confident and it will work" thing... But really that doesn't help. Sorry if I seem so down and stuff, I'm not. It's just, after about 3 years I feel I've wasted my time.

[Douglas]

...

I need serious advice to make this work.

...

Hi Nathan,

I am also learning so I cannot speak to you with the voice of experience.

But, if you have tried the self guided learning programs and are still feeling lost, it might be wise to find the money for at least a few lessons with a vocal coach. Most of the time they aren't magic, but now and then you will learn things that completely change your singing ability. Improvement often comes in leaps and bounds, separated by periods of slow improvment, and even some backsliding. I have learned from many self-guided sources and liked them all. They include Singing Success (though it is expensive) both the basic set and Mastering Mix, as well as many books including Jaime Vendera's Book "Raise Your Voice" but my personal favorit is the book from the Complete Voice Institue in Denmark. It has a lot of value for the money. But it is only a book. The founder of this forum also has a program which seems to be well respected, and I plan to get the next edition of it which is called "the four pillers of singing" when it is published.

But if you have already been working on your own for awhile and are still feeling lost, a good coach might not just be someone that can teach you about technical sing but might be able to guide you about the business end of the singing as well. This is true in most professions and one might hope that it would happen for singers too.

There are lots of places to find good instructors, there are likely tons on this board, and many likely have the experience to help you with your career.

I have been taking skype lessons from CVI in Denmark which I have been enjoying, but they don't claim to help folks with career development so that might not be the right fit for you (or at least not the people only taking solo lessons, they have tons of courses but sadly not in the USA). Some of the instuctors on in these forums might be better able to serve as a mentor rather than just a technical instructor.

One to check out might be the forum's founder Robert Lunte, here is a link to his promo but if you haven't run into him yet on the forum, stick around. He is a very active participant: http://www.thevocaliststudio.com/

If you just want a book with lots of cool stuff, but nothing about how to actually build a career, then CVIs book is very neat too.

I hope this helps some.

Doug

PS I have no financial relationship with any of the programs that I mentioned, and I learned about CVI for the first time on this very forum.

[VideoHere]

It's not a lack of belief really. It's just, well it obviously wasn't great. I need serious advice to make this work. I know the whole "be confident and it will work" thing... But really that doesn't help. Sorry if I seem so down and stuff, I'm not. It's just, after about 3 years I feel I've wasted my time.

tell us your three biggest vocal goals?

[ronws]

Nathan, you ask if you can't impress an audition board at the school, how could you hope to impress an audience.

For one thing, the audition board is there to reject people. They only have so many slots to fill. An audience is there to see a show, a spectacle. A review board wants you to fit in with their system. An audience wants you to rock their socks off.

Basically, apples and oranges.

[Nathan]

I might get the CVT book soon. I have all of the others. Dunno if it'd be worth it, considering I have everything else.

Vocal Goals:

1) Develop a good voical tone/sound that could sell records (the last part is corny!) or just that I am proud of.

2) Be able to sing in tune... I'm unsure if I'm currently achieving it.

I don't even have 3. Those 2 are all I want, for now at least. Without those 2 I feel I could work on the other stuff i.e. range, effects etc. I consider great tone and ability to sing in tune much more important.

True, but most audiences are rather judgemental. At least it seems that way here. My last audition for my old college was very easy and they were very forgiving. It just feels that if I cannot impress them, what would be the point. I'm not considering uni to be the be all and end all, but to me it's pretty important.

[VideoHere]

I might get the CVT book soon. I have all of the others. Dunno if it'd be worth it, considering I have everything else.

Vocal Goals:

1) Develop a good voical tone/sound that could sell records (the last part is corny!) or just that I am proud of.

2) Be able to sing in tune... I'm unsure if I'm currently achieving it.

I don't even have 3. Those 2 are all I want, for now at least. Without those 2 I feel I could work on the other stuff i.e. range, effects etc. I consider great tone and ability to sing in tune much more important.

True, but most audiences are rather judgemental. At least it seems that way here. My last audition for my old college was very easy and they were very forgiving. It just feels that if I cannot impress them, what would be the point. I'm not considering uni to be the be all and end all, but to me it's pretty important.

1) Develop a good voical tone/sound that could sell records (the last part is corny!) or just that I am proud of.

perhaps i can help you with (above) although it's pretty vague.

do you indentify with any particular singer(s) for their vocal sound or timbre?

do you ever emulate a singer?

do you have a feel for what kind of voice you wish to have?

do you find yourself favoring a particular style?

what genre(s) do you gravitate towards?

i don't know, just trying to help.

maybe, if you list your top favorite singers, we can assess what you might need to reach your goals?

[Nathan]

Okay well I always liked a few things from individual voices. I like Miljenko Matijevic (steelheart)'s power in the top notes, Freddie Mercury's overall sound, Dave Grohl has a kind of raspy sound I quite like. Also, moving away from rock, I actually think Justin Timberlake has quite a cool voice. Also a bit of Shaun Morgan (Seether) deep richness would be cool.

So my main style is rock, but I like most other styles too. However I'd say rock is what I mostly go for.

Dunno about emulate, I guess to some degree most of the above.

I have no idea what type of voice I have. Some people have said I'm a baritone, some have said tenor. So I've no idea.

Is that any help? I hope so, I'm excited to see your reply.

ND.

[ronws]

True, but most audiences are rather judgemental. At least it seems that way here. My last audition for my old college was very easy and they were very forgiving. It just feels that if I cannot impress them, what would be the point. I'm not considering uni to be the be all and end all, but to me it's pretty important.

For every reason we give to boost your confidence, you come up with another roadblock. Therefore, the audition boards, the audience, they are not holding you back. You are holding yourself back. So, if you reject yourself, you prevent them from having to reject, as you think they will. You need to contemplate the zen of a statement spoken by Texas comedian Ron White. "Hey buddy, I'm third generation don't give a #%$&!" What I mean by that is quit concentrating on how you might fail and pay attention to where you succeed.

People would throw stuff at Twisted Sister and Dee Snider narrowly avoided a thrown object that was later discovered to be human excrement. Whereas, you haven't even auditioned for the schools, right? I suggest you go out there and sing. Then, if someone throws crap at you, you know you have registered some kind of response.

[Nathan]

I don't mean to appear so negative. It can just get a little frustrating at times. I'll at least apply, for definite. But whether or not my application will be successful remains to be seen.

[ronws]

I don't mean to appear so negative. It can just get a little frustrating at times. I'll at least apply, for definite. But whether or not my application will be successful remains to be seen.

That's a better spirit, for you. Give it your best shot and see what happens. What is the worst? That the university says no? What then? Well, you get with a band, write a couple of hit songs and go platinum in album sales and make more money in a few years than the equity worth of the entire college campus. That's what happens.

[Marcus]

I totally agree with ronws on this one, confidence is very important for a singer. And since you are thinking about making it as a professional singer you obviously believe in yourself somewhere deep down. Take hold of that part and make it BIG Just throw away all doubts and fears of rejection, it will help you more than you can imagine.

I think a singer should always strive for development, otherwise you will never improve, but you have to believe in yourself and your potential.

[ronws]

Excellent point, Marcus. In here, we can cover aspects of singing technique in laborious detail, illustrated by graphs of harmonic analysis from Steven plus his monstrous database of a mind for physiology, we can get into the most miniscule point of physics involved in producing a sound. From esoteric jargon particular to scientific study of the voice to colloquial phrases and misnomers that give us mental images of our goals. Such as doing a witch or Paul Lynde to get the feeling of twang.

But what can we do about one's lack of self confidence, the inherent ability to assume that another's critique, especially if they are not even as knowledgable as the least of us here, is somehow accurate and germaine? Well, I'm not a trained psychologist or psychiatrist or therapist.

I just have a lack of shame. My mother noted it. In her words, "Ron, you will do whatever you do, in front of God and everybody." I didn't think of it as self-confidence. In fact, I think of it as wholly animal. Like a dog digging in the garden or peeing on a tree. It's what he does. This is what I do. It's good or it's not. You like it or you don't. What's left for me to do but live and die? I might as well be doing what I want to. Which doesn't mean I don't strive to improve or change something, if necessary. That's important, too.

I've made lots of mistakes and I will continue to make mistakes. And the world continues to turn.

That is tempered with a sense of limitations. Sometimes, I run into a song I can't do well. So, I leave it alone. I'm not the only one to notice that some songs with the lyrics in them and the melody they have are more suited to one voice than another. And that's okay, too. Just the same, it's nice to have goals. Gets us out of bed in the morning and something to do.

My life has been full of any number of people telling me "no" or devaluing what I do or what my accomplishments are. Almost exactly to the person in number, it has been a case of where that other person was really commenting from a personal deficiency of their own and the only way they can feel superior to me is to try and bring me down. Once in a while, like a blind hog finding an acorn, they come up with something pertinent, though their delivery sucked or had psychological intentions.

But the other thing I inherited from my mother is stubbornness. Either one of us could teach mules how to be stubborn. Beaten, bruised, bloodied, dirty, I get back up again to take another swing. If you have ever seen the movie "Wild Hogs" near the end where the 4 middle aged guys take on a biker gang of about 50 members in a fist fight, I'm one of the old guys who gets back up.

What if I always sound like Billy Corgan in a soup can when recording? Well maybe the world needs to hear "Civil War" ala Billy Corgan in a soup can. And Corgan has made his mark in the world. I dare anyone to not sing along with "Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage." A most piquant lyric that captured a generation.

And here he is, covering a hard rock classic.