Range of the chest voice

[khawarspirit]

Yes, I realize that, for males, it is easier to hit the notes from F4 onwards in mixed/head voice and one can develop resonance and power up there. But the question is that is it possible to hit the notes up to C5 in chest voice for men? Because in female singers like Mariah Carey (yes I realize how incredibly talented she is and how hard she must've worked) go up to G#5s in chest voice. While countertenors have a powerful head voice, what about us poor baritones? :p

[Jens]

well it depends on what terminology used for the highnotes, ive heard loads of men approach the C5 in an heavyer(chestyer) approach than mariah has for her highrange

[ronws]

Yes, I realize that, for males, it is easier to hit the notes from F4 onwards in mixed/head voice and one can develop resonance and power up there. But the question is that is it possible to hit the notes up to C5 in chest voice for men? Because in female singers like Mariah Carey (yes I realize how incredibly talented she is and how hard she must've worked) go up to G#5s in chest voice. While countertenors have a powerful head voice, what about us poor baritones?

May I ask how it is that you know she is in chest voice that high? I've seen many a singer that was in head voice but because of covering and breath support and perhaps some added distortion it sounded "chesty."

[Martin H]

First we must define the term! Is it a register or a sound or something third?

[khawarspirit]

Ronws: You have a good point. I didn't really know about what you just explained, I didn't know that was possible. But "chest voice" is definitely heavier sounding than the "head voice", right... And whenever she uses pure head voice she basically just hurries to transition into whistle. ;\ It's difficult to pinpoint whether she uses head voice for all that belting or if she just pulls chest higher.

MartinH: How do you differ "registers" from "sounds"? What I meant by chest voice is basically that the resonance doesn't shift in the nasal regions when one gets higher (and doesn't flip into falsetto either). So my question is whether we can pull our voice higher?

[Matt]

But "chest voice" is definitely heavier sounding than the "head voice", right...

Head voice can sound just as powerful and often people think a powerful headvoice is chest. Check out Dio for a powerful headvoice

[ronws]

Head voice can sound just as powerful and often people think a powerful headvoice is chest. Check out Dio for a powerful headvoice

But Matt, some are going to continue thinking that a person is singing chest because it sounded like it, regardless of whether that person was singing in head voice. They know what they know and no amount of explanation otherwise is going to change them.

[Martin H]

khawarspirit, Matt and ronws,

Your comments just proved my point once again. Chestvoice, Headvoice, Falsetto etc. are outdated terms....they cause to much confusion because they mean a 100 different things to a 100 different people!....leave them be. :)

[jonpall]

As soon as CVT becomes more widespread, the CVT terms will start to cause confusion as well. It's the nature of things being in its infancy - like CVT is (at least compared to f.ex. Bel Canto). So let's say we all do as you say and allow CVT to rule the world ( ), then it will only be a matter of years or decades until the same will happen to the CVT terms as with all long living methodologies. Still it's funny, because all those terms, chest voice, head voice, falsetto AND the CVT names, don't confuse ME at all. I know f.ex. that when people are talking about having a "chesty" voice in their high notes that they usually want some kind of curbing. Well, in some cases they want more MLN or even overdrive, but that can be found out simply by asking the person what sound their after. And I do agree that for that, CVT is extremely helpful. CVT has helped me so much. I just don't agree with that we should let it take over the world

Cheers, dude!

[Martin H]

So let's say we all do as you say and allow CVT to rule the world

jonpall,

Who said anything about CVT being the "truth"?? I'm not trying to showel anything down in peoples throats.....I'm just saying that if you want to use the "old" terms PLEASE define them!! They belong to an outdated era....but people (as you) still keep on defending them! Why??

Peace!

[Jens]

highnotes will always resonate in the head, so how can a highnote be other than a headnote? even if the sound has tons of Ta activation it will still be a "Headnote". But this is all just terminology Personaly i hate the old terms, they are as Martin describes outdated

[jonpall]

Martin, what other terms than the CVT terms are not outdated, in your opinion?

I'm only "defending" those "old terms" when I find them being attacked which is uneccessary. You can't ALWAYS "define" those terms when you're putting them in text - it would simply take too much time (to write and to read). I think that you always understand what people mean by those "old" terms - you just want to nitpick But they are quite clear. It comes down to ONE thing - PEOPLE WANT POWERFUL HIGH NOTES. 99% of the questions on this forum could really be answered by "just pick a good vocal program and work your ass off".

[Snorth]

As jens said, high notes will always resonate in your head and not in your chest. Lower notes do however resonate in your chest and in your head. Is there a big point in knowing this? No, because you do not consiously remove the chest resonance as you ascend in pitch, it happends automatically. As I said in another thread on another forum, suggesting to people that they could project their voice in their head when they want to sing higher notes could work. But it could also not work, and that shouldn't be a big deal. Image projections are not too be taken to seriously. The annoying thing about this is when you go to youtube to listen to some sweet notes by your favorite singers there is always 100000000000 comments about "dude its liek totally head voice", "nu uh! it's falsetto!", "yu guys r all stewpid, it's obviously mixed voice". And these terms have been used in so many different schools with such different meanings that the discussions achieve absolutely nothing.

[Martin H]

jonpall,

The terms that are exclusively used within ONE method and clearly defined are good terms!

My point is that "chestvoice", "headvoice" etc. are outdated....I remember asking you once what "headvoice" was....and you went all over the place....you couldn't even define it! All subjective explanations about feeling it in the soft palate etc.

Sorry, but I simply can't understand why you want to use them?? And yes, I know what they mean most of the time...BUT that's only because I studied voice for a long time!

I JUST KEEP ON SEEING PEOPLE GET CONFUSED WITH THESE TERMS OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!

[jonpall]

Snorth, I do agree with you that it's silly when people say stuff like "this is totally falsetto" or "is this head voice". But I try to ignore those type of children

I think that for most people it's very helpful to "imagine" that a high note comes out of your head in order to reduce vocal weight for those high notes. But again, like you said, it might not work, in which case the vocal coach should suggest something else. But I think the image of chest vs. head voice IS helpful the majority of the time.

However, for the past months it has happened many times for me that I've had some vocal problems and it was when I checked the CVT book when I solved my problem, so I must say again, CVT rocks :)

[jonpall]

In SLS, chest voice and head voice are pretty well defined. In Bel Canto, chest voice and head voice are pretty well defined. In CVT, curbing, neutral, overdrive, etc. are pretty well defined. All within their own method. I know that you have pointed out that sometimes people are talking about a sound when they say chest voice or head voice and sometimes they're talking about a register. Obviously, in most places outside of CVT, registers and sounds are connected because in most vocal schools, there is an "ideal" sound. F.ex. your low notes "should" sound full and "chesty", in many, many vocal schools and you "should" have a cry/hold around your passagio according to many vocal coaches. But in CVT, they acknowledge that you could sing with a hold or a very soft, breathy tone, very easily, in your low range, so what should you call those sounds. A low pitched chest voice with lots of cry and a low pitched, breathy chest voice? I see what you mean and I agree with you to a certain extent. It's just that those terms don't really bother me as it does some of you guys and I think that the idea of chest voice vs. head voice can be really helpful to beginning students. But there is no way around it - if you want to really understand the voice, it takes a hell of a long time :)

[Martin H]

jonpall,

Or it just takes a definition. That's it :)

[Martin H]

Jonpall,

I know I'm being a little of an a.. here.....but can you properly define:

Headvoice?

Chestvoice?

Falsetto?

[jonpall]

Well, they are defined a bit differently by different people, like you said, but here's my definition:

Chest voice = a "chesty" sounding voice = overdrive (CVT) (all the way up to C5 for some people but most good male vocalists start to lose their chest voice between C4 and G4). I don't really think I'd say that curbing or neutral or even edge are ever "chest voice". For me it would have to be overdrive, even though f.ex. curbing can sound pretty chesty, in a way, in the high part of the voice.

Head voice = A non-breathy, soft voice above the passagio (neutral without air in the high and very high part of the voice in CVT). I don't think I'd call neutral in the middle and low part of the voice "head voice", even if it's soft and "hooty".

Falsetto = A breathy, soft voice above the passagio (neutral WITH air in the high and very high part of the voice in CVT). Btw, I'd never call MLN (head voice with a lot of twang) "falsetto", as some do..

Notice how those 3 definitions didn't cover all the sounds the human voice can make? Well, the rest can be covered f.ex. by CVT. But even though these are my definitions, I usually understand when people use the same terms but mean something different. Still I can't see how you're not recommending that CVT takes over the world . I also know that these 3 terms above could be viewed as bit of a simplification of all the possibilities of the human voice, but for beginners, simplifications are good. Cheers!

[VideoHere]

Well, they are defined a bit differently by different people, like you said, but here's my definition:

Chest voice = a "chesty" sounding voice = overdrive (CVT) (all the way up to C5 for some people but most good male vocalists start to lose their chest voice between C4 and G4). I don't really think I'd say that curbing or neutral or even edge are ever "chest voice". For me it would have to be overdrive, even though f.ex. curbing can sound pretty chesty, in a way, in the high part of the voice.

Head voice = A non-breathy, soft voice above the passagio (neutral without air in the high and very high part of the voice in CVT). I don't think I'd call neutral in the middle and low part of the voice "head voice", even if it's soft and "hooty".

Falsetto = A breathy, soft voice above the passagio (neutral WITH air in the high and very high part of the voice in CVT). Btw, I'd never call MLN (head voice with a lot of twang) "falsetto", as some do..

Notice how those 3 definitions didn't cover all the sounds the human voice can make? Well, the rest can be covered f.ex. by CVT. But even though these are my definitions, I usually understand when people use the same terms but mean something different. Still I can't see how you're not recommending that CVT takes over the world . I also know that these 3 terms above could be viewed as bit of a simplification of all the possibilities of the human voice, but for beginners, simplifications are good. Cheers!

folks,

i don't know cvt, but i know one thing....

there are many levels of head voice from pure, sweet, soft tones, to super-resonant powerful, piercing and clear tones. same for chest.

[jonpall]

Ok, sure, you could simplify things even further and say that chest voice = low notes and head voice = high notes and falsetto = high, breathy voice :)

[khawarspirit]

LOL, this argument can go on forever. The question wasn't supposed to start this. Okay, I'm asking the people who understand the "chest voice" as it is defined in the SLS program: Is it possible to pull it to a C5? Really? :o

[Quincy]

I would say no. Using SS terminology, pure chest (thick fold) runs out in your break area approx E4 for males. Then according to SS you have to begin "mixing" head voice (thin fold). You can have different ratios of thickness/thinness but as you ascend the ratio will continue to shift towards (thin). In other words, a C5 could have very thin folds (more pure head voice), or say 10%/90% light mix, 20/80 mix, 30/70 heavy mix. Those ratios are just made up, but that is the general idea.

On the lower pitch, let's say G4, you may be able to pull off a 20/80 light mix, 40/60 mix, 60/40 heavy mix. But these are just mental ideas, nothing based on actual physical measurements.

I think a better way of looking at it is how much vocal fold body thickness you can maintain as you go up in pitch. How much you actually want at a given pitch. And there are other variables that will change the "chesty" sound at those higher pitches. For ex. the vowels you use up higher will accentuate different frequencies, some higher and some lower than other vowels. Twang is another big tool for changing the perceived loudness and tonal quality of those higher pitches.

But to your original question, SS wouldn't say a male can have pure chest at C5. The cords have to stretch to get that pitch and that thins them out.

[Snorth]

I would say no. Using SS terminology, pure chest (thick fold) runs out in your break area approx E4 for males.

Saying that thick fold singing "runs out" or can not be healthy above E4 is a flat out lie if they use that term. O.o

[jonpall]

CVT states that you CAN do this, up to C5 for males. But the only 2 vowels that are possible with that sound that high up are Eh as in "stay" and Oh as in "so". Personally, I believe it's true. However, it's true that most vocal programs advocate against this.