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Baritone/Bass Singers With High Notes?

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JackCee

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One moment off topic. I want to apologize for my prior posts disappearing. Robert accidentally deleted/banned me. All good now.

 

I want to go a little more in depth here after reading most of the post. I have to strongly disagree. In my opinion many of these voices would be by Operatic terminology considered Tenor. Caruso's voice is 10-15 shades heavier then Geoff Tate. There are many Tenor Classification. Lowest Dramatic Baritone-Tenor through to the Contra Tenor and 20 or more in.between, Spinto, Dramatic, Lyrical, Dramatic Lyric. Many voices in metal, Pop, Rock aren't in my opinion proper classified. There are some very dark and heavy Tenors out there, who are non the less still Tenor, at least by Traditional standards.

 

This is one of my Facebook friends Robert McFarland a World Class Dramatic Baritone.

 

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I find the same with Ladies, so many tell me they are a Contra-alto when in fact either they are just singing incorrectly or have vocal damage. Stevie Nicks is a low Soprano, Anne Wilson is a Mezzo. Real Contra Alto and Real Basses are rare I would say about 3% of voices. There are many Baritones Singing Bass out there. Most male voices are Some type of Baritone or some type of Tenor. Technology, EQing, Effects also change the sound on recording from a true rendering. If you put Tate next to a real Baritone you will hear the difference.

 

Robert stated in another post not to think of things as high or low note rather frequencies. I agree 100%

 

This is exactly what allows everything in an Opera house to be heard clearly, Old World Composers understood this, hence the classifications to begin with. They compose properly for an acoustic environment. New Operas can be very messy because many new com[posers DON'T understand those principles. If you have a 40 piece Orchestra and things are correct, you can hear every instrument and every voice because each occupies in appropriate space and supports the other.

 

For mental imagining

 

imagine the Bass to be a bowling ball, very heavy cannot throw that far, but it will rumble and continue to roll.

the Baritone like a bowling pin , you can throw it further, give a good smack in the head with it.

The Tenor or Soprano voice is like an arrow short from a bow, if aimed properly it will go to the back of the house over the rest. Some Coloratura sopranos have tiny voices however they will pierce over all else and are clearly heard.

 

It's hard to classify rock, pop, metal voices for several reasons.

 

1. The standard of terminology is different.

2. Effects

3. Many eat the mic in the studio.

 

Voices also can change classification many Sopranos lower to Mezzo roles when they age, many young vocalist voice change higher or lower. Also I keep hearing the age thing like Tate is too old to hit those notes. Most legit Tenor voice just start to bloom at 40. Rock, Pop, metal voices suffer many more abuses or they would go on many, many more years. Vocalist outside of the Opera community tend to get lazy once they are signed/touring. VOICES NEED TO BE MAINTAINED AND TUNED UP ALWAYS.

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Sing a five note scale in M2 from D4-A4. There, problem solved. ;)

Hmm... wait a second. Here is a a small excerpt from the CVT book:

Flageolet (M2 I think)

Very high notes (above the high C) are created by increased muscular tensions preventing parts of the vocal cords from vibrating. To sing above high C you have to use the flageolet. Without the flageolet these notes cannot be reached. However, most most singers do not feel the usage of flagelet in the very high part of the voice. If you use the correct technique the voice will automatically use the flageolet in the very high part of the voice. Below the high C it is possible to sing in either full length vibration or in flageolet. It is not dangerous for the vocal cords to sing in flageolet but can cause vocal problems or confusion. 

Using Vocal Flageolet below a high C (pg78)

If you sing with a flageolet below a high C it is a very quiet and thin sound. Some singers wrongly think that they are practising pianissimo but instead they are using the flageolet below a high C. This may lead to many singing technique problems. Therefore it is essential not to confuse the notes of supported pianissimo with high C. Singers should avoid singing with a flageolet below a high C as the usual principles of singing technique are not working here and they risk working in a split in the voice. Splitting is unintentional creaking.

Exercises for removing split in your voice

Sing at such a powerful volume that the vocal cords simply CANNOT perform the flageolet. Obviously it is not a good idea to practise the flageolet below a high C. However, the flageolet is necessary to reach the notes above a high C.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think I will just stick with TVS for now. Although I am not an ENT, nor a voice guru, some methods are simply not meant for self-teaching. What I learned from listening to TVS clips and other skilled singers... they make the switch to M2 very seamlessly, SOUNDS like belting but they actually switched. This is better observed with baritone singers since they have more powerful timber. I hope we can stop debating over the never-ending issue of falsetto and watch more baritone/bass with high notes. I do not wish to confuse singers just encourage myself and other baritones to sing high :)

Also, it is very sad for me to see people like Geoff Tate and David Coverdale losing the high range. This has decreased my motivation not increased it like I had hoped but thanks guys for trying to help me. 

Starts at 1:00

Starts at :24

 

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The fact is many people stop developing the voices after they become successful. The process doesn't end. It is like a video game you go to the next level , new but different challenges, it especially difficult when everything gets too easy, people get lazy and lose focus. That is the time to get creative do you scales/exercises laying down, do them while walking or running on the treadmill. Right around 35 I got stiff, I use to be crazy onstage. Nice to see Anne Wilson starting to move around again. You definitely need to start exercising more than the voice over 40. The body will go long before a well train voice will. I know many over 70 opera singers who's voice are still awesome, some in wheel chairs, some have had hip replacements.. their voices are still full range, full dynamics. Tate and many of them start pushing too much, if their technique is solid they can get away with it, others just start breaking. 

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That is the time to get creative do you scales/exercises laying down, do them while walking or running on the treadmill. Right around 35 I got stiff, I use to be crazy onstage. Nice to see Anne Wilson starting to move around again. You definitely need to start exercising more than the voice over 40. The body will go long before a well train voice will. I know many over 70 opera singers who's voice are still awesome, some in wheel chairs, some have had hip replacements.. their voices are still full range, full dynamics. Tate and many of them start pushing too much, if their technique is solid they can get away with it, others just start breaking.

A-effing-MEN!

I very rarely if ever do my vocal exercises standing still.

I usually do them while

- juggling a soccer ball

- Playing with a yo-yo

- Exercising my picking hand by open e downstrokes or sawing

- Exercising my fret hand with legatos

- Doing the dishes

- Cooking food

- whatever that takes my mind off of overdoing them.

Sometimes just for the hell of it I do hanging leg lifts while doing scales. Needless to say when I actually sing I don't really have to focus too much so I don't overthink my passagio, support or placement. It's just there, and it's effortless.

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Is your issue really a matter of M2 capping out at E4 as you say, or is it that your M1 caps out at E4 and you never make it into a resonant M2?

 

I'm new to this stuff and my (likely imperfect) understanding is that M2 starts around E4.

 

Yes!  Sorry, that is what I meant to say.  My M1 caps out and that is what causes my "vocal break."  I have yet to find a resonant M2 as you say to prevent this from happening.  For me, unfortunately, this is just something that is very counter intuitive.  

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I had a question. It was stated that Caruso had a voice even heavier than Geoff Tate. I wondered how that comparison was made. Is there a recording of Caruso that is comparable to what we have today? I am not disputing the statement, just wondered logistically how that comparison can be arrived at.

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Yes!  Sorry, that is what I meant to say.  My M1 caps out and that is what causes my "vocal break."  I have yet to find a resonant M2 as you say to prevent this from happening.  For me, unfortunately, this is just something that is very counter intuitive.  

 

Cool, I wasn't trying to correct you or be pedantic, I'm just trying to understand this stuff better myself.

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Geoff Tate and Caruso are hardly comparable. Geoff Tate literally ALWAYS uses light mass coordinations. I never ever have heard him shout. Even when he talks during gigs he uses head voice for the more intensive calls instead of actual call mode.

 

Caruso on the other hand was a classical singer. Thus, he used mainly heavy mass phonations that are able to project over an orchestra. In terms of voice type I think Caruso was a dramatic tenor, while Tate is a standard or lyric baritone. 

 

But saying that Carusos voice was heavier than Tate's is kind of misleading because the difference in mass is mainly technique in this case.

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Then the breaks can happen on various pitches depending on the volume. Low volume, early bridging; high volume, late bridging?

 

As I´ve mentioned, to do it properly, breaking is not useful (breaking can happen due to N+1 causes), and yes, there are many ways to control it. You can also have variations based simply on how intense you will center your singing (how loud is your middle intensity?).

 

Classical fachs are a kind of specialization... And it is in a big part subjective/aesthetical.

 

A good way to think about the passaggio, and "translate" the 2 register system, is to think of chest voice as the area of your voice where you can get away with habitual tensions and without much concern for intensity and resonance. After a certain point, you need to let go of these tensions and mind carefully what you are doing in terms of intensity and vowels, that would be "head". You can also map sensations related to tension release for example.

 

One reason its useful is that some tensions and the way we normally register vowels are important to retain individuality.

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Just putting it out there: Has it ever crossed your mind that voicetypes is only truly bullshit made up by the devil to make us focus on this nonsense instead of getting better at singing?;)

Kindo makes sense, illuminati and everything, hate those guys

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Just putting it out there: Has it ever crossed your mind that voicetypes is only truly bullshit made up by the devil to make us focus on this nonsense instead of getting better at singing? ;)

Kindo makes sense, illuminati and everything, hate those guys

   Makes sense.....All those friggin hand signals you see from entertainers, politicians and such...   Another way to control our thoughts and minds......You must be a Baritone......Break at G4......... Blasted illuminati....... :)  ../

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Just putting it out there: Has it ever crossed your mind that voicetypes is only truly bullshit made up by the devil to make us focus on this nonsense instead of getting better at singing? ;)

Kindo makes sense, illuminati and everything, hate those guys

Even if voice types would purely result from the way we focus our training it would still be interesting to be able to name singers that use their voice in a certain style. You could just rename this thread into "singers with beefy lows that also sing high". We are still looking for a certain kind of singer, be it the result of training or physiology.

 

I think we already came to the conclusion that we entitle someone as "bass" that has strong ping and projection on notes in the lower 2nd octave and maybe even below. This is still a skill that has to be developed by training even if you might have a natural tendency to be a bass because of the length of your folds or whatever.

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Because of my other thread I discovered something cool (thanks Jabroni!), I do not think this is full voice but it's very interesting to me... he sing it better than a soprano. I am unsure how he would refine this co-ordination to turn into a more believable full voice, CVT says do not dampen the larynx at high notes which is not what Robert says in the TVS version I have. The potential of male voice is much greater than I ever thought.
 
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But saying that Carusos voice was heavier than Tate's is kind of misleading because the difference in mass is mainly technique in this case

 

Ok, let me clear that up , more appropriate the words should be DARKER and more weighted in tone, not the mass. I also mentioned in that post the criteria and terminologies are different. In Opera the voices are typed by what is done Full Voice that is considered the person TRUE VOICE. You can hit a high C many ways it's still a high C however in Opera if your not in the correct mode it is call a False C.. many think Caruso's high C was a false C. I can thin my voice by entering another vocal mode/position and sound like a Soprano, but it does change the fact that I'm a Tenor. Training allows us to do many things and vocalize in many ways. It does not change the REAL Properties of the voice. There are Tenors who only sing bass in 4 part harmony groups all the time. They hit the notes, but to any trained ear it is clear they are not a bass.

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Because of my other thread I discovered something cool (thanks Jabroni!), I do not think this is full voice but it's VERY interesting to me... he sing it better than a soprano. I am unsure how he would refine this co-ordination to turn into a more believable full voice, CVT says do not dampen the larynx at high notes which is not what Robert says in the TVS version I have. The potential of male voice is much greater than I ever thought.
 

 

 

The larynx can be dampened or not. There is not a fixed rule. It just so happens that if you anchor the larynx through the passaggio and into the head voice, it can help you to have more "beef" in your sound and you also get more stability. But that doesn't mean that its something always want to do. It can also make the articulators a bit clunky, this is why shading in good forward palette (Edging Vowels) with an anchored larynx is super important.

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Ok, let me clear that up , more appropriate the words should be DARKER and more weighted in tone, not the mass.

Yes that's true, too, but its also a stylistic thing as opera singers sing with a lower larynx. Would be really interesting to hear Geoff Tate sing classical style, I wonder if he can even do it  ;)

 

Especially on high notes tenors tend to be darker than baritones in general though, because baritones often need a higher larynx to achieve "full voice" on their highest notes.

 

It's really hard to compare singers that sing so different in style and sound coloring. 

 

Transitioned into the classical world Geoff Tates singing style is probably closest to that of a counter tenor. Many counter tenors in the classical world do it the same way as Geoff. Their "true" voice type is very often baritone but they never really sing like a baritone is expected to.

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Transitioned into the classical world Geoff Tates singing style is probably closest to that of a counter tenor. Many counter tenors in the classical world do it the same way as Geoff. Their "true" voice type is very often baritone but they never really sing like a baritone is expected to.

 

It certainly can be difficult if you go by style or even recordings. You can eat the mic onstage or in the studio and effects, EQ high or low. That why I referred to the REAL voice, in Full voice mode. As for what I quoted here. See there is where we differ. In my terminology most of the Counter Tenors are not real Counter Tenors.. I.E they speak low, can also sing in a darker full voice. A real Contra Tenor and true Coloratura will have that same quality in there low register, would not be able to speak or sound like an alto or bass , baritone. Their vocal membranes are shorter , their physicality and physiology are different. Lower voices can fake high note or go into another mode. A true Counter Tenor's or Coloratura voice stays up there. If you listen to Lilly Ponds her lowest notes still maintain the Coloratura quality. In the 80's Boy George started that thing, everyone was like OMG he sounds like a girl. Most of his stuff wasn't even that high. Someone in here mention they thought Geoff Tate was a Lyric Baritone to me rick Astley is a lyric Baritone. Also Tate does some classical style pieces, I've heard them. I will try to find a link or video.

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Just putting it out there: Has it ever crossed your mind that voicetypes is only truly bullshit made up by the devil to make us focus on this nonsense instead of getting better at singing? ;)

Kindo makes sense, illuminati and everything, hate those guys

rockonwhichyabadself

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Still, it would be cool to hear a more modern quality recording of Caruso for comparison. Just wishful thinking. Much of what we know about Caruso is heresay, mostly from a few others who wrote about him, as well as his own memoirs. But, as you know, singers ALWAYS tell the truth. (that's sarcasm.)

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Just putting it out there: Has it ever crossed your mind that voicetypes is only truly bullshit made up by the devil to make us focus on this nonsense instead of getting better at singing? ;)

Kindo makes sense, illuminati and everything, hate those guys

 

LOL yes and to a degree I agree with you, however remember at the time those classifications were developed everything was acoustic. Each voice and instrument had to be heard clearly and also be able to blend, hence each had to be put in a place and frequency with allowed both. Different people had different voices and were placed according to the characteristics/ properties their voices were most suited for. No different than dogs you have champion bloodlines breed for specific characteristic and there are mutts. In all honesty, I've not found one to be better than the other as a pet, however a Pittbull will never be a Poodle. Like and the same you can train any type of dog to sit, come, lay down. You can train any breed of voice, however a St.Bernard no matter how well train will not fit through a doggy door sized for a toy poodle, nor will a Tenor be a bass or bass be a tenor no matter how high or low each sing. Than again add rabbies, get Cujo and you never know lol

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Still, it would be cool to hear a more modern quality recording of Caruso for comparison. Just wishful thinking. Much of what we know about Caruso is heresay, mostly from a few others who wrote about him, as well as his own memoirs. But, as you know, singers ALWAYS tell the truth. (that's sarcasm.)

 

You dare say lol Vocalist are always honest, especially the 350 pound Sopranos who insist they are thin enough.  I don't mean to be discriminating against larger people , it not politically correct and the public will kill you. however what most of these people don't under stand is that a Soprano's costume in a full scale production may cost over 1 million dollar. Now if I am the Opera director, budgeting the funds and my Soprano come to a fitting before stage and I spend over a million dollars and she return months later for dress rehearsal and can't get into the clothes it's a huge problem lol

 

Yes you are correct, however those old recording offer a more authentic rendition of the voice ( unless they have been remastered, then the are EQ'ed and touched up.) Even a little reverb make a huge difference, digital recordings also compress,also the speed video or recording is uploaded online effects quality.

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This is just my opinion but I think the primary function of the voice above anything else is...  survival. I've heard people imitate lions, cats, birds, pterodactyls, snakes, dogs, dolphins, wolves, horses, elephants, cows, etc. I'm not a vocal coach or ENT so I have little credibility - forget vocal fach though if you had to sing soprano to survive I think you would be singing a different tune. 

 

I created this thread to hear some classically classified baritones or bass sing notes of tenor or soprano convincingly, with all due respect please create a different thread to debate your feelings about vocal fach. 

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LOL yes and to a degree I agree with you, however remember at the time those classifications were developed everything was acoustic. Each voice and instrument had to be heard clearly and also be able to blend, hence each had to be put in a place and frequency with allowed both. Different people had different voices and were placed according to the characteristics/ properties their voices were most suited for. No different than dogs you have champion bloodlines breed for specific characteristic and there are mutts. In all honesty, I've not found one to be better than the other as a pet, however a Pittbull will never be a Poodle. Like and the same you can train any type of dog to sit, come, lay down. You can train any breed of voice, however a St.Bernard no matter how well train will not fit through a doggy door sized for a toy poodle, nor will a Tenor be a bass or bass be a tenor no matter how high or low each sing. Than again add rabbies, get Cujo and you never know lol

Yes i totaly agree, but as we are discussing mostly contemporary singers here we Will never know wich one's a poodle or pitbull. As you wrote in in an other post. Mic, effects, Amp , the soundcolor used by the singer ect ect It comes to a point where it's obsolete. Many of the biggest factors(projection,tessitura) in classification is erased with the modern way of doing things.

Just because you got a dark timbre voice does not mean it will project or just because i can sing light and tenory does not mean i Will be able to do these sounds to be heard over an orchestra.

In the end most of this is just mindless thinking, does it sound like they have abit voice, then we say baritone/bass IF it sounds like a smaller voice we say tenor. In the end we Will never know as we will never ever he able to hear all these singers acousticly singing with an operatic technique. :P

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