Songwriting

[JohnnyL]

The first thing I've done after starting vocal training about a year ago, was apologizing to the singer in my band. Figured out I wrote a few things that are not that friendly to sing. So now I'm getting back to songwriting. That's really my favorite part of being a 'musician'. 

 

So, I was thinking that a thread that discusses writing songs for the instrument (instead of tips on how to properly cover a song) could be an interesting topic. Yet again, I might be wrong as usual (we don't want to write songs! just cover them! new is evil!).

 

So ideas and experience for writing songs that are just great to sing. 

 

Here's one from Ian Gillan:

 

PS: I guess some songs just come together easily!

We spent a long time learning the craft of songwriting, Roger Glover and I, for a few years before we joined Deep Purple. You learn about the percussive value of words, and you learn about rhyme and meter. You learn that you can't transform a poem into a song lyric, mostly because the spoken shape of words is different than the sung shape of words. You wouldn't use the vowel 'U' or the vowel sound 'ooo' for a high note for example, its very difficult. We'd paid our dues in that respect, so the songs, the craft of songwriting came quite naturally. I think it's the inspiration and above anything else it is incumbent on an artist, if you're gonna call yourself an artist, to be expressive. That's all anyone asks of you really. So if you can find the material and channel it the right way, then songwriting's a wonderful medium for expression.nnel it the right way, then songwriting's a wonderful medium for expression.

http://progsheet1.hypermart.net/gillan.html

[ronws]

This concept has been tried a few times, last time, by my brother, Scott, though I think he had posted in the recording section or something like that. And he and I were about the only ones in the thread carrying on a conversation we could have done in email or on the phone.

 

A large number of the singers coming into this forum have some vocal hero they are trying to mimick. A style of music they want to cover. But there are a few who write originals. and they just do it, rather than discussing it, though I think discussion can be good, too. Some, like Guitargeorge shares his songwriting collabs he does with others, here.

 

I am a simple guy, so pop style and ballad songs appeal to me. The song needs to get to the point and have a simple melody that sticks in people's minds like peanut butter on bread. Fancier styles like prog and prog metal, you can get a bit more diverse and it is then expected.

 

How to write a song? I have no idea and I have studied numerous books on it. Because sometimes, the lyrics come to mind first. The easiest time is when the melody comes first. Then, all I have to do is flesh out the chord progression that fits it. Other times, when "busted flat in Baton Rouge and waiting for a train," I will return to the circle of fifths to come up with something.

 

The worst time I have had is coming up with a concept but I can't quite grab ahold of the meter and tempo. I have been wanting to write a song about something I like doing called the "Brisket Smoking Blues" but I just haven't found anything that sticks.

[hobbit rock]

Great topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Songwriting is one of my very favorite things to discuss, research etc. And of course....to do. Although it can be a painful rabbit hole to go down sometimes.  I've learned a lot about my songwriting tendencies lately.....As I learn more about vocal technique I realized why I had always been so hung up on the phonetics of the lyrics. I have a rhyming dictionary and sometimes have used it a little differently than it is intended. Instead of using it to try to find a rhyme for something that is already there, I use it to find a word that gives me the vowel I'm looking for.

    I didn't think of it that way until recently when I became used to the idea of different vowels being much easier to sing in certain situations. Why did I like the word "time" on that D4? Well....I was pronouncing the "i" as an "ah". I could stretch it and it felt good.

    I heard a podcast recently where Greg Dulli (Afghan Whigs, Twilight Singers) was being interviewed by Joseph Arthur ( very gifted singer-songwriter). Dulli was talking about how he admired guys like Arthur who could write a set of lyrics first and then put it to music. Dulli went on to say that it is not like that for him. For him lyrics come last......he needs to find the lyrics that sit best with the melody by finding the best vowel sounds etc.

     I do it the exact same way. Chords and melody come first.....together. That's the inspiration part. Then there are partial working lyrics that are often improvised just to sort of flesh the melody out a bit. Inevitably one or two of these lines will be keepers. Maybe it's because the sentiment is interesting....maybe the phonetics just sound musical and the sentiment is only ok. Whatever. It doesn't really matter at this early stage.

     My feeling is that these lyrics came out of somewhere really pure. They made their way to the melody before I had even taken pen to paper. So that's great. It gives me a place to start that I feel like I can trust. So often these types of things (song craft) can become very convoluted. I don't want it to be an exercise of intellect although it inevitably does by the time you're trying to "finish" something.

     I read an interview with Leonard Cohen where he talks about the extremely labored, painful process that he has. He has a notebook dedicated for each song. He often writes many, many more verses for a song that never make it in there. I mean look at the lyrics for "Hallelujah" .......pretty epic stuff. It's all made up of simple language. You don't need a dictionary close by like with a Sting song or something. But just because it seems simple doesn't mean it is......or that the process of writing it was simple. I really believe the best art has only an illusion of simplicity.

     This is sort of the old school poet approach. Guys like Cohen and Nick Cave have it down. There are Nick Cave songs where he uses pretty much all perfect rhymes....probably just to prove he can do it and still write a mind blowing tune. Perfect rhymes are like "cat" and "hat". They force you to use everyday language. But in the hands of a great lyricist you get something pretty special.

     Anyway. There's a lot to talk about here. Hopefully others will get in on the discussion.

[JohnnyL]

I believe that songwriting is another 'black-box' (known only to insiders) that gets an aura of 'you need talent and inspiration and it has to be natural'. Even more than singing. I'm always on the hunt for good material on 'how to do it'. And one of the reasons that convinced me to take vocal training is that I could improve the craft of songwriting by, well, actually learning how to sing the songs I write (even if someone can do it better, not sure that one should write what he/she can't play).

 

There are a few things I've learnt about writing for singers. It starts with the basic of leaving room to breathe and staying in a reasonable range... the concept of vowels and consonants is something that I've started really understanding only after I've started to vocal training. 

 

@hobbit rock - I'm a melody first type of guy myself. A melody usually needs a good groove, so it's two in one in a way. Harmonization is relatively easy for me (I'm not searching for jazz chords). Wish I could handle both lyrics and melody in the same time but it's really way too much for me. I'm developing my methods of inserting lyrics, identifying the section that would serve as a hook, etc... 

[JohnnyL]

Here's one: an element I hear in many blues songs is going down from high notes to lower chesty notes in rather big leaps. Ramblin' On My Mind and Texas Flood are two famous songs that come to mind. I always think that it's a technique to sing high yet still sound, well, relatively manly and I suppose that in some cases it is easier (yet still very impressive) to move between falsetto and chest voice in big leaps. 

 

AC/DC also go for this sort of technique sometimes:

 

 

What do you think?

[ronws]

Well, songwriting is the whole song, not just the voice. But it is okay to start with a stock formula of a b a b c a b.

 

like this little ole band from Houston.

 

[JohnnyL]

I love ZZ Top.

 

But Ron - I'm not sure I'm following you - what do you mean by 'a whole song'? every leading instrument should be treated professionally, especially when it is prominent in a song. A song is more than the guitar but you need to figure out how to make something that work, whether it's Steve Cropper's understated rhythm playing or the build up for Jimmy Page's Stairway To Heaven solo. Doesn't matter if you want to make a memorable track or an easy on the instrument track or even something that covers both - you need to understand how to write for the instrument and not only how to write a song and hope that everyone would figure out how make something out of it. 

[MDEW]

    My own opinion is that the song itself is a seed. Melody, Lyrics and basic chord progression.  The rest grows over time and gets its influence from the other musicians and producers and such.

   A great song is still great when just backed by a rhythm guitar....regardless of the rhythm style presented by the guitarist.

  Do you really think that it was John, George, Paul and Ringo who decided whether to have an orchestra backing certain songs or when to have a flute instead of a violin for particular parts, or who wrote the parts for the flute or violin, organ or orchestra? The most they did was "Maybe it would be cool to have a circus sound in the background". Someone else would figure out how to fit a circus sound into the composition.

  Even when YOU wrote the song and are the singer, other parts are given to someone else's interpretation. Unless you truly are doing everything yourself. That is truly a daunting task.

[JohnnyL]

The Beatles are a fine example of four multi-instrumentalists who understood really well the limitations of each instrument. Also, their songwriting was methodological, with distinguishable differences between Paul's and John's approaches. 

 

Something this thread made me realize: I've been playing in bands for more than 10 years now I can see that I'm not the only one who sinned by writing something that makes the life of other instrumentalists difficult. For example: most keyboardists I worked with wrote songs with never-ending chord changes, these are easy and flowing on a keyboard but hell for most other instruments.

 also stumbled upon a few songs that left other musicians doing almost nothing during the whole song. If you play in a small club, standing on a stage and trying not to look funny doing close to nothing for five minutes could be a daunting task. The guy with the crush cymbals in a symphonic orchestra can at least blend in with a 100 similarly dressed musicians while waiting for his big moment... 

 

I think it all comes down to being a musician as opposed to being just good on your main instrument. 

[MDEW]

    The keyboardist with multiple chord changes is a fine example that the core of a song should be the seed.

A basic chord progression is  5 basic chords at the most The rest of the chord changes are really alterations of the basic chords.

    Listen to a song like Hank Williams Sr. "I'm so lonesome I Could Cry" The basic chord progression is 3 chords. The  basic chord in the first verse is C throughout:..

"Hear That lonesome whippoorwill.. He sounds to blue to Cry(C7). All the same chord but a keyboardist or Jazz Player could throw in a multitude of chord changes in there and usually do.... But all those changes are the icing NOT the cake.

    When writing concentrate on the Cake Not the icing.....That lets the other musicians add their own flavor and each time the song is sung and played it will be new.

[ronws]

Johnny L raised a good point. One of Bruce Dickinson's problems is when others in the band, who don't sing, write lyrics. It looks like shakespearean prose and they want it in the upper 4th octave.

 

And John, what I meant was that writing a song is not just about the vocal melody, as much as we may celebrate that, here. Which may also be a bit of a hurdle. Getting past our love affair with the voice and see it as another instrument in the band. So, while the vocal melody is going high and low, what is the music doing?

[JohnnyL]

The best book I read about songwriting is this one:

Melody in Songwriting: Tools and Techniques for Writing Hit Songs 

http://www.amazon.com/Melody-Songwriting-Techniques-Writing-Berklee/dp/063400638X

 

 

I hate the 'writing hit songs' in the name and it has nothing to do with it (a little like 'how to sing like your favorite singer'... isn't it?). The books covers many things that would help anyone in improvising on his/her instrument as well as writing a song. It requires some knowledge of theory though.

The book also covers some harmony and lyric relationship with the melody.  There are books that cover these issues more profoundly but I do want to leave some place for ignorance and trial and error. Plus, I'm a three and a half chord person so harmony is for the jazz cat as far as I'm concerned. :-)

 

It also says something I fully agree with about songwriting that somewhat relates to the discussion here. Goes something like: groove is the bones, melody and harmony are the blood and flesh of a song... everything else is clothing'. Although to some extent clothing makes the man (and the song) I fully agree with it. 

 

 

Also - regarding harmony (and keyboard players) - harmony is very basic for a song. Do Re Mi will sound very differently played on a C chord, compared to when they are played on an Am chord. So someone who throws a lot of chords in there changes the way the whole song sounds and feels. Frequent chord choices change the tension and feel in the song. They move the mood from blues/rock to jazz...

[ronws]

But Kurt Cobain wrote hit songs, using the same circle of 5ths, verse, chorus, break, verse, chorus. What Nirvana did different was change the tone of the guitars and the singing. But same thing going on. I once heard a grunge song by another band and aside from the over-fuzzy guitar and the singer sounding like he was gargling pea gravel, the chord progression and melody could have been Queensryche.

 

So, don't reject "hit song." I am not exactly sure what is so good about being a broke musician. They are no more honest than Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley, as well as other writers that wrote songs for KISS.

 

Gene Simmons responded to accusations that KISS is a sell-out. "You're absolutely correct. We are a sell-out. We sell out the show every night that we play."

[MDEW]

   Song writing has taken a big hit lately with Robin Thick being sued for Copywrite infringement. I listened to both songs and there may be some similarities in the style but they are different songs and melodies. Even Led Zeppelin is being sued for taking a riff and expanding on it. A riff and a chord progression are 2 different things.

   If you are going to be sued for a chord progression then 90% of the songs out there are guilty of infringement.

[hobbit rock]

The best book I read about songwriting is this one:

Melody in Songwriting: Tools and Techniques for Writing Hit Songs 

http://www.amazon.com/Melody-Songwriting-Techniques-Writing-Berklee/dp/063400638X

 

 

I hate the 'writing hit songs' in the name and it has nothing to do with it (a little like 'how to sing like your favorite singer'... isn't it?). The books covers many things that would help anyone in improvising on his/her instrument as well as writing a song. It requires some knowledge of theory though.

The book also covers some harmony and lyric relationship with the melody.  There are books that cover these issues more profoundly but I do want to leave some place for ignorance and trial and error. Plus, I'm a three and a half chord person so harmony is for the jazz cat as far as I'm concerned. :-)

 

It also says something I fully agree with about songwriting that somewhat relates to the discussion here. Goes something like: groove is the bones, melody and harmony are the blood and flesh of a song... everything else is clothing'. Although to some extent clothing makes the man (and the song) I fully agree with it. 

 

 

Also - regarding harmony (and keyboard players) - harmony is very basic for a song. Do Re Mi will sound very differently played on a C chord, compared to when they are played on an Am chord. So someone who throws a lot of chords in there changes the way the whole song sounds and feels. Frequent chord choices change the tension and feel in the song. They move the mood from blues/rock to jazz...

I have similar books....lots of good information but they almost always have regrettable titles. Kinda like singing books with the word "Star" in the title. Bums me out ....but we move on.....take what we can from the resources that are available. I like what you said about groove, melody and harmony. Substitute the word rhythm for groove and you've got the text book elements of what music is. I heard an interview one time (don't remember who the producer was) where he said that when mixing a song you put the faders up for the drums, the bass, and the vocals first. If it sounds good like that then you know you've got the tune in the can. That's relying pretty heavily on the bass for the harmonic element in my opinion but I love the sentiment. It probably applies to production more than songwriting but it does a nice job of highlighting and focusing on those key fundamental elements that we're talking about.

 

    As for the idea that harmonic sophistication or complexity is for jazz musicians.....I disagree with that. It goes back to what I said in my earlier post. Most of the time there is only the illusion of simplicity. I mean, sure.....a song that is just G, C, and D with a D7 thrown in on the turnaround....that is pretty basic stuff. And I agree in this context the 7th on the D (in this case a C note) is more or less an extension note.

    But......what about when there's a major 7th chord? That's not as interchangeable. That chord is very influential. Melodies are drawn to the thing that makes it a major seventh. In a C chord that would be a B note. Then there are all the songs that use both the major and minor of any given chord. The major 4th to the minor 4th is the classic example from doo wop on down the line. Even if the melody isn't drawn to the harmonic change ( example D major to D minor in  a song in the key of A....and the vocals are singing an A or a D and not going anywhere near the F# or the F natural.) That's a move used over and over to great effect.

    Look at the chords to "In My Life" by the Beatles. That's got the movement on the 4th. It's also got the both the major and minor versions of the 2 chord. A and Am if you're playing in G.

Then there are the songs that have what is called a parallel key change. Example- the song is in A but there's a section in Am. Tricky stuff. Again the Beatles did it in "Here There And Everywhere" and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".

 

 IMPORTANT-  Just for the record.....I'm not that big of a Beatles fan. I'd rather listen to the Stones or the Animals any day. But....I use them as an example of how important well thought out chord progressions (harmony) can be. It's what really elevates those melodies into something otherwordly. And still, I'm sure some would call one or more of these songs simple. I think it seems simple because of how well it works. Everything fits perfectly.....and sure....it's easy to play.

 

After all....it's not jazz

[MDEW]

     When playing guitar I have different little runs or embellishments that I do depending on what chord I am playing...with the C chord I lift my ring finger changing the chord to a Cmaj7 put it back on the fret back to C and then drop my pinky onto the D note changing the chord to a C9 or maybe I will drop my middle finger from the E of the C chord to the A note Now I have the notes C,D,A and C Which looks to me like a D7 with a C bass........ All of these chords while the Chord to be played is just C....... I don't really think about the name of the chord after the change I just view it as a little run. Even with all of that all I have to do is NOT play the root C note and that C, Cmaj7, C, C9 riff can now be C, Em, Am7, Em7.

    That is basically what Led Zeppelin did with Stairway to heaven. They took a cool little bass walk down with droning notes and fleshed them out into a chord progression and added Lyrics and now they are being sued.

[JohnnyL]

But Kurt Cobain wrote hit songs, using the same circle of 5ths, verse, chorus, break, verse, chorus. What Nirvana did different was change the tone of the guitars and the singing. But same thing going on. I once heard a grunge song by another band and aside from the over-fuzzy guitar and the singer sounding like he was gargling pea gravel, the chord progression and melody could have been Queensryche.

 

So, don't reject "hit song." I am not exactly sure what is so good about being a broke musician. They are no more honest than Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley, as well as other writers that wrote songs for KISS.

 

Gene Simmons responded to accusations that KISS is a sell-out. "You're absolutely correct. We are a sell-out. We sell out the show every night that we play."

 

Not rejecting hit songs, I'm a big fan of catchy tunes... I do have some reservations about things that promise to make you a 'hit maker', a 'star', 'make you rich' (how about just helping you make better economic decisions?), or 'give you good abs without getting of the sofa'...

 

Fully agree on Kurt Cobain - he wrote great pop/rock songs (IMHO) and 'dressed them up' as grunge. When it comes to modern rock/pop music it really is just a 'costume' - there's no magical order of notes in a good melody or magic chords that separates Grunge from 80's Metal and from Bubble Gum Pop. 

 

 

I have similar books....lots of good information but they almost always have regrettable titles. Kinda like singing books with the word "Star" in the title. Bums me out ....but we move on.....take what we can from the resources that are available. I like what you said about groove, melody and harmony. Substitute the word rhythm for groove and you've got the text book elements of what music is. I heard an interview one time (don't remember who the producer was) where he said that when mixing a song you put the faders up for the drums, the bass, and the vocals first. If it sounds good like that then you know you've got the tune in the can. That's relying pretty heavily on the bass for the harmonic element in my opinion but I love the sentiment. It probably applies to production more than songwriting but it does a nice job of highlighting and focusing on those key fundamental elements that we're talking about.

 

    As for the idea that harmonic sophistication or complexity is for jazz musicians.....I disagree with that. It goes back to what I said in my earlier post. Most of the time there is only the illusion of simplicity. I mean, sure.....a song that is just G, C, and D with a D7 thrown in on the turnaround....that is pretty basic stuff. And I agree in this context the 7th on the D (in this case a C note) is more or less an extension note.

    But......what about when there's a major 7th chord? That's not as interchangeable. That chord is very influential. Melodies are drawn to the thing that makes it a major seventh. In a C chord that would be a B note. Then there are all the songs that use both the major and minor of any given chord. The major 4th to the minor 4th is the classic example from doo wop on down the line. Even if the melody isn't drawn to the harmonic change ( example D major to D minor in  a song in the key of A....and the vocals are singing an A or a D and not going anywhere near the F# or the F natural.) That's a move used over and over to great effect.

    Look at the chords to "In My Life" by the Beatles. That's got the movement on the 4th. It's also got the both the major and minor versions of the 2 chord. A and Am if you're playing in G.

Then there are the songs that have what is called a parallel key change. Example- the song is in A but there's a section in Am. Tricky stuff. Again the Beatles did it in "Here There And Everywhere" and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".

 

 IMPORTANT-  Just for the record.....I'm not that big of a Beatles fan. I'd rather listen to the Stones or the Animals any day. But....I use them as an example of how important well thought out chord progressions (harmony) can be. It's what really elevates those melodies into something otherwordly. And still, I'm sure some would call one or more of these songs simple. I think it seems simple because of how well it works. Everything fits perfectly.....and sure....it's easy to play.

 

After all....it's not jazz

 

I stand corrected about using Groove instead of Rhythm... didn't take the time to look it up in the book (now and when posting) but I'm pretty sure that's what they have used. 'Groove' is a semi-intentional mistake as when I approach writing I know that one can write a good songs by just running through a scale with a few unexpected rhythmic elements. 'Rhythm', in my head is always just 1... 2... 3... 4...

 

I didn't mean that jazz is more sophisticated. Multiple chord changes and/or modulations give songs a different feel. The mood you get by creating tensions and releases by playing a scale on 1 chord is different from what you'll get by doing it on multiple chords. Can both approaches yield similar results? sometimes... you can go Be Bop with a two chord song, and go all blues rock on fast chord changes and surprising modulations (Eric Clapton's Layla?). Making 'simple' sound good requires a lot of sophistication though.... ask the every Bluesman, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones or AC/DC...

 

Anyway - I'm in the making simple sound good camp myself. I think the whole thing came up by me trying to make an analogy between throwing any melody to a singer, even if it is not natural for his voice, to throwing a lot of chords to an unsuspecting blues-rock guitarist. 

 

 

     When playing guitar I have different little runs or embellishments that I do depending on what chord I am playing...with the C chord I lift my ring finger changing the chord to a Cmaj7 put it back on the fret back to C and then drop my pinky onto the D note changing the chord to a C9 or maybe I will drop my middle finger from the E of the C chord to the A note Now I have the notes C,D,A and C Which looks to me like a D7 with a C bass........ All of these chords while the Chord to be played is just C....... I don't really think about the name of the chord after the change I just view it as a little run. Even with all of that all I have to do is NOT play the root C note and that C, Cmaj7, C, C9 riff can now be C, Em, Am7, Em7.

    That is basically what Led Zeppelin did with Stairway to heaven. They took a cool little bass walk down with droning notes and fleshed them out into a chord progression and added Lyrics and now they are being sued.

 

Runs, embellishments, feels and little solos are one thing. Making them into a chord chart and asking everyone else to learn exactly how to do them is another thing. That's a how to be in a band lesson - unless you're paying them to back you up, give the room to do what they want and don't give them too much homework. And yeah, most of the chords I write are simple major or minor chords... stuff is added according to the feel of the musicians when the song is being created. 

As for Led Zeppelin: if you listen to Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love and Willie Dixon's 'You Need Love' there was a pretty good reason to sue them. Zeppelin used to take full lyric, melody and harmony sections from other bands. The Stairway to Heaven intro also doesn't sound 'accidental', although they could have gotten away with it if they didn't have a reputation for going a few steps beyond just being inspired. I love the things they did with the stuff they took away from others, but you need to pay for what you take...

[MDEW]

 

 

 

Runs, embellishments, feels and little solos are one thing. Making them into a chord chart and asking everyone else to learn exactly how to do them is another thing. That's a how to be in a band lesson - unless you're paying them to back you up, give the room to do what they want and don't give them too much homework. And yeah, most of the chords I write are simple major or minor chords... stuff is added according to the feel of the musicians when the song is being created. 

As for Led Zeppelin: if you listen to Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love and Willie Dixon's 'You Need Love' there was a pretty good reason to sue them. Zeppelin used to take full lyric, melody and harmony sections from other bands. The Stairway to Heaven intro also doesn't sound 'accidental', although they could have gotten away with it if they didn't have a reputation for going a few steps beyond just being inspired. I love the things they did with the stuff they took away from others, but you need to pay for what you take...

             That is what I am saying......in this situation of the C, Cmaj7, C, C9 the chord chart would just say C maj chord for however many bars then to the F chord or what ever...... the incidentals  and passing notes are what makes the extra chords......They do not need to be charted. Many times that neat orchestra in the background will have a combination of notes that make an Em or Am while the main rhythm is playing a C chord.  It works because the root chord of a progression can be any Major altered chord form: Cmaj7,Cmaj9, C6, C69...... as long as some instrument is playing a C note somewhere in the mix.

     Of course there are rules to follow for everything to sound cool and not get too far off track.

    The charted progression could just be a simple 1, 4 , 2, 5.... and with the embellishments end up being a 10 chord song when everything comes together with the input of the other instruments.

[ronws]

Some old blues guy ought to then sue Led Zeppelin for "Been a Long Time since I Rock and Rolled." That is 12-bar blues with a dance beat, of all things.

 

But, I could be wrong and am obviously not an expert.

[JohnnyL]

I'm no lawyer but as far as I know, you can't sue for a chord progression. So one can 12 bar blues away as much as he wants. Or just go for the famous C/G/Am/F progression and write pop hits: 

 

 

Zeppelin might have been able to get away with Stairway To Heaven resembling Taurus by Spirit... but they've actually toured with Spirit. And they have a history:

[ronws]

And the latest song by Foo Fighters has a chord progression stolen from "Holy Diver" by Dio. There is no new thing under the sun.

[JohnnyL]

Again, having a similar chord progression is not stealing. I believe you can even have the same notes from a certain melody (in the same order) as notes played with a different rhythm are just not the same melody.

 

BTW, here's one from a different form of art: think about an adventure story about a young man discovering his own abilities and heritage with the help of a sarcastic outlaw... and together they try to save a honorable damsel in distress from a strong evil adversary... 

 

Am I talking Star Wars or Pirates of the Caribbeans? do you consider them to be the same movie? The sequels also have some strong similarities. Good thing the copyrights for both are now owned by the same corporation. Eragon the hit fantasy book also has the same principle plot...

[MDEW]

Again, having a similar chord progression is not stealing. I believe you can even have the same notes from a certain melody (in the same order) as notes played with a different rhythm are just not the same melody.

 

BTW, here's one from a different form of art: think about an adventure story about a young man discovering his own abilities and heritage with the help of a sarcastic outlaw... and together they try to save a honorable damsel in distress from a strong evil adversary... 

 

Am I talking Star Wars or Pirates of the Caribbeans? do you consider them to be the same movie? The sequels also have some strong similarities. Good thing the copyrights for both are now owned by the same corporation. Eragon the hit fantasy book also has the same principle plot...

   This all leads back to my post about song writing taking a big hit because of Robin Thicke losing the lawsuit. Robins song has a similer feel. That is where the similarities end, and he lost.

[JohnnyL]

MDEW - I agree that lawyers can ruin it for everybody, every time in a different direction. 

 

I don't consider it a 'big hit' though. People still write, get inspired while trying to stay original, and if accidentally or not-so-accidentally they write a song that is too similar to something they have heard, there's a way to share revenues and credit. Many of these claims get settled out of court...

 

It would have been a bigger hit to the business if Led Zeppelin could plagiarize every other musician and get away with it. So you can go too far with both approaches. 

 

And of course: 

[MDEW]

You are correct and it will still happen..... "I want a new drug" and the theme from "Ghost Busters" come to mind also.

George Harrisons "My sweet Lord" and a motown song with "I really want to know him" in the lyrics. I can't remember the title of the song.