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High Vs Low Larynx.. Good video

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aravindmadis
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Agreed, this is a good video, because of the singing, not because of the annotations. Just  because this person says so, doesn't prove it so. These annotations have sweeping assumptions about the configuration of these singing moments that is not validated in the least. This video may as well show clips of children opening gifts on Christmas and claim that this is proof that there is a Santa Claus. 

 

It is perfectly fine for the larynx to lower and to raise and to be neutral and to position itself where ever it needs to, to achieve the sound color the artist is trying to communicate. Teachers that obsess with keeping a neutral larynx;

 

1). Typically can't explain why they are so obsessed with it, other then, they learned to be obsessed by this notion from their teacher, who in turn, also cannot explain why they are so obsessed with a "neutral" larynx... and the cycle goes on and on. This video is a perfect example of "neutral" larynx obsession with no evidence to back up the argument that is being made. 

 

2). Fail to teach their students how to belt and how to twang hard and generally speaking, how to use the intrinsic musculature to sing amazing. Under trained, under utilized, limited sound colors, no endurance, students that keep coming back... lesson after lesson, hoping one day that they too will be able to sound like Whitney Houston, but will NEVER sound like that so long as they continue to pamper the larynx... which leads me to #3.

 

3). Teach fear. Students of "sing with a  neutral" larynx doctrines are often left with a fear of the larynx, or fear of any contractions or leverage intrinsically. This means they under compress, under leverage or fail to leverage at all, don't contract musculature so they never get any good resistance training, never do glottal attacks and belt and the list goes on and on. Instead, they chase ghosts and pamper the larynx with an obsession to try to sing by not feeling anything, or to have their larynx benign, like it does when they speak. You cannot sing amazing in the pure physiology and acoustics of speech mode! Unless your Jim Morrison and you want to recite some poetry in the middle of a tune, in which case, you wouldn't be singing, you would be speaking. If you could, there would be no point in practicing, nothing to strive for and I would be out of a job. The sad tragedy is, that the very thing that many "neutral larynx" students need the most is precisely the thing they are not getting and its preventing a lot of people from making gains they would otherwise make.

 

The only clip I think could be validated for certain is the blonde woman that is singing on American Idol with a larynx that is too low... that was correct, it was too low... didn't sound too great... but the accusations about what singers had high or neutral positions in this montage is just speculation from someone's predisposed, bias towards "neutral larynx" ideas.

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So Robert are you saying singing with a low larynx is correct but a floating neutral larynx is incorrect? I would disagree but maybe that's not what you are saying..

 

I understood that even a high larynx can be "neutral"...

 

In other words you are not supposed to push larynx on purpose but instead allow it to go where it wants freely without you forcing it up or down. And i can relate to that, because i have no clue how to keep it in one position because even when i go as high as D4 it goes up slightly without me pushing even a bit.

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So Robert are you saying singing with a low larynx is correct but a floating neutral larynx is incorrect? I would disagree but maybe that's not what you are saying..

   I do not think that is what Robert is saying. I think he is saying Obsessing over a neutral larynx is wrong or bad. The larynx will change per sound color and mode and other things. Too high or too low will cause their own problems. Balanced maybe? is a better way to express it.

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Never focused on my larynx. I was never one to say, oh my larynx needs to be low so let me force it down.

 

Here's some links to look at:

 

http://somaticvoicework.com/the-larynx-has-to-move/  

 

http://music.stackexchange.com/questions/5906/how-to-correctly-position-your-larynx-when-singing

 

Making sure the larynx is not too high or too low is how I've always gone about things. If it's too high, darken the vowel or just sing slightly dopey/woofy if that makes sense

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So Robert are you saying singing with a low larynx is correct but a floating neutral larynx is incorrect? I would disagree but maybe that's not what you are saying..

 

No Dan, I'm not saying that at all!  I am not making a judgement on any position for the larynx, other then where it NEEDS to go in order to facilitate the sound color the singer needs. It has been my experience that, a lot of belting, twanging and other more aggressive phonations are not going to respond accordingly if the singer is contentiously, obsessed with "not feeling the larynx"... or tries to avoid intrinsic contractions, leveraging, etc. There is nothing wrong with a free, floaty, comfortable larynx. In fact it is healthy I suppose, but most people are not going to get the sound colors and necessary anchoring they need by trying to sing through a "neutral" position. Apart from the fact that, neutral larynx doctrine... does seem to create a sense of fear in students and I think that is a shame.

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   I do not think that is what Robert is saying. I think he is saying Obsessing over a neutral larynx is wrong or bad. The larynx will change per sound color and mode and other things. Too high or too low will cause their own problems. Balanced maybe? is a better way to express it.

 

Yes, that is my argument.

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Simply put. The higher you sing the more your larynx will rise and vice versa. And the main reason for that is physiologically and acoustically.

 

... but what if I could sing like I speak? Everything would seemingly be so much easier. Would I become a Speakinger?  

 

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Simply put. The higher you sing the more your larynx will rise and vice versa. And the main reason for that is physiological and acoustical.

 

i notice depending on the vowel, the larynx is much higher when you sing ah as in cat on the same note than it is oo as in fool..

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I would hear the singing and discard most of what is said in there.

 

The issue is not one dimensional. There is the physiological need and the aesthetical quality you aim for, also the possibility of reducing the effort levels, etc..

 

 

So depends on what is going on and what you want.

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 Robert i was not making an argument. i just think that it is important to use a neutral larynx, and thats not saying that when I sing zeppelin or sound garden or chaka kahn my larynx is low I'm just saying its lower than if i hadn't trained with a neutral larynx.  

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    It is funny how you guys say the same thing and it seems like something different. I believe you don't even realize you are saying the same thing sometimes. :)

    It does make the forum more interesting.

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Or what if you could run like you walk?

 

That'd be cool because then I could run without having to work as hard because when I walk it gets more easier... and if its gets more easier, it's more gooder because I don't have to run, which would be more harder. Now if you excuse me, Im going to practice my "inhale like I exhale" method, because if I could only figure out how to do that, it would get more easier, 'cause its easier to exhale then to inhale... so please tell me a voice training method that makes it easier, not harder, with some free secret tips. 

 

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I've heard that it's okay to raise/lower your larynx if you do it naturally. Sometimes you just can't help it. With certain notes in my chest voice I can feel my larynx drop sometimes and in my really high head voice, it raises. Then again, I'm not formally trained, so keep that in mind. If it hurts to hurt or feels forced, then you're doing it the wrong way and then you're pushing your larynx.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think it really depends on the definition of "neutral larynx". Some teachers indeed want the larynx to not move at all and stay in a "centered" position. With that definition everything that Rob stated 100% applies. However, some teachers, when they say "neutral" larynx actually mean that you don't do anything by intention with your larynx, you just focus on the vowel and color and make the larynx react and place itself where it needs to.

 

I think "floating larynx" would indeed be a more appropriate term for that. Personally I don't like to modify my larynx position intentionally. If I want it to be lower and the sound to be darker I modify my vowels more towards OO (big dump) or UH (slight dump), if I want it to be higher I modify more towards AH (slight rise) or A (big rise).

 

I think you should never go out of the "vowel spectrum" actively with your larynx. So the OO position is the lowest you should go and the A position is the highest you should go. Both vowels have to be "centered" though, which mainly means that they must have the appropriate amount of twang and support, too. 

 

If you exaggerate the OO position so much for example that you lose the neccessary twang, your larynx is too low, if you exaggerate the A position so much that you overcompress the larynx is too high. Everything else is okay.

 

Then there is the natural need for the larynx to rise with pitch. Personally I just ignore that fact, because if I sing an OO on a high note with the correct amount of twang and support the larynx position will automatically be higher compared to an OO vowel on a low pitch, even though an OO is a "low larynx" vowel.

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All these threads.

Chestvoice vs headvoice

Low larynx vs high larynx

Bla bla bla is just bullshit... The voice does not work this way, there is no "vs" in the voice, AIM towards your goals train technique then make that as efficient as possible. There is no one true divine coordination thats superior to all else, im pretty tired of these vs threads since it always implies the conclusion of some sort of ultimate vocal secret thats gonna give you your one true voice.

Yuck

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