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"Bottom-Up" Training, Should It Be Considered? (Techniques For Belting)

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I was thinking of this and I'd love to hear your opinions, especially from the voice teachers.

Let's say a singer tried an experiment.

He committed to practicing every day where he has to run the voice up his range and he had to avoid any kind of bridging, no letting go into falsetto, no transitioning...nothing... just had to run the full voice up all through just sheer will and determination.

So any scale, any siren any voice exercise had to be done in full voice.  No use of any heady placement, just pull up chest higher and higher.....

I wonder,,,,,Would the voice eventually find it's way all the up the range?

Would you and your voice figure out the way up through the "passaggio" and above?

Would the development in this way open up the voice and allow it to release?

I mean it's not like anyone's thinking of this or trying it, but I just wonder what the voice might end up doing in terms of capability and development.

We always teach and read how the chest voice ends and now you have to nowhere to go......how you get stuck....or how you need to transition.......

Historically speaking, did the teachers or singers of years gone by ever explore this?  So let's say you just chest pulled for a few months, where would the voice end up?

 

Would it be damaged?

Would it be unbalanced?

Who's to say......

(And yes.....I'm a little crazy I guess..lol)

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Bob, based on my experience... 

 

Some people would get benefit out of that, about 20%... about 80% would just run into brick walls and likely make any constriction issues that were already there worse. The risk is very high with this approach, as I point out in this video below.

 

In "4Pillars"... there are bottom-up and top-down onsets, vowels and techniques that allow a student to NOT have to make a choice. I understand that you are putting a value the result of bottom-up training... but what you may not fully appreciate because your not teaching every day is, most students don't have the basic coordination to do that. These guys need to get a decent onset, learn how to balance acoustic mass, learn how to modify some resonant vowels, learn how to hold an embouchure, etc... 

 

I think you underestimate the level of fundamentals that are not in place with most beginning students... what you are suggesting is suited well for the novice to experienced student for sure... raw beginners, most will just constrict and push. Belting is a very complex coordination.

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Bob, based on my experience... 

 

Some people would get benefit out of that, about 20%... about 80% would just run into brick walls and likely make any constriction issues that were already there worse. The risk is very high with this approach, as I point out in this video below.

 

In "4Pillars"... there are bottom-up and top-down onsets, vowels and techniques that allow a student to NOT have to make a choice. I understand that you are putting a value the result of bottom-up training... but what you may not fully appreciate because your not teaching every day is, most students don't have the basic coordination to do that. These guys need to get a decent onset, learn how to balance acoustic mass, learn how to modify some resonant vowels, learn how to hold an embouchure, etc... 

 

I think you underestimate the level of fundamentals that are not in place with most beginning students... what you are suggesting is suited well for the novice to experienced student for sure... raw beginners, most will just constrict and push. Belting is a very complex coordination.

 

 

I agree on this point.

 

But i guess for begginers connecting to head voice can be a daunting task because that sooo COUNTER intuitive. Belting is a bit easier to understand, but i guess harder to do right.

 

But this is interesting. would love to know how far can a person stretch its belt up.

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Rob, can you post that video you're referring to?

I think he wanted to link the video he did on Early vs Late bridging.. but he forgot to link it.

I assumed that because in that video he explains in more depth what he wrote in comment but i mihht be mistaken

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belting is still using head voice and a balanced registration...what happens when you just pull and splatt and push and strain even though you may be able to do it once in a while,you end up inconsistent and saying "well I could do it fine last week but now its just airy and weak etc etc..  or you end up like some older guys saying well I could sing it when i was younger unlike Stevie Wonder or the 91 year old tenor we talk about on here who could still do it.  

 

You end up realizing you need to learn something later on..

 

There are exceptions that just sing and always say "i just belt it out and it works" good for them that may not be you..

 

Don't look for short cuts or search for what you think is right?, put in the work, don't make excuses find answers if it aint working for you. 

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Thats the reason most people here get to work with singing. Thats all what Young untrained singers do, push their chestvoice in the end it unbalances you, you need to practice the entire voice. Girls get the same problem but vice versa most sing and speak to light in heady falsettoy sounds and in the end it unbalances you. :p

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Good stuff here... Yes, I was teaching and forgot to put "said" video in here... most of you guys have seen this I think, but it does kinda hit at this discussion.

 

Elvis, if you want to work on "bottom-up" or belting as Bob is advocating, you need to focus on your Resistance training onsets, namely; A&R, D&R and C&R.  Also, good edging and neutral vowels.

 

Notice the "Resistance" group... I have recently divided the onsets into two groups... so that when they are trained, there can be a bit more strategy and logic behind them. On group is more of the "light mass", coordination, formant tuning group... the 2nd group is the heavier stuff for belting. Q&R is the odd ball, it seems to fit both groups actually. It is both about coordination and formant tuning... and, if you need to work on compression, it can be used for resistance training.

 

 

 

 

BRIDGING EARLY VS. BRIDGING LATE

 

There seems to be some debate about the merits of bridging the vocal registers early vs bridging late. So let’s have a better understanding of what this really means and why it is important. Referring to vocal register bridging in the context of time, “late” & “early” only tells a small part of the story and really has a lot to be desired in helping students to understand what is really going on. It in fact, misses the more important point students of singing really need to understand in order to remove the confusion that is being created in the market place regarding this issue.

 

There is a question that needs to be asked to begin this discussion and that is, “what is late and what is early”? What is early or late is the engagement of the intrinsic musculature involved in maintaining a full, connected voice in the head voice, specifically, the muscles required to maintain vocal fold closure above modal voice or M1. Those muscles include the cricothyroid, interarytenoids and vocalis, all used to help lengthen the vocal folds and aid in vocal fold adduction, assisting in the increase in vocal pitch. Maintaining engagement of this primary modal voice/M1 (chest voice) musculature when ascending in pitch, leads to great endurance, agility and strong belting capabilities. Simply put, these are the primary muscles that help you to extend your chest voice higher to sound more chesty on higher frequencies when singing. So the issue really boils down to how much musculature you decide, as an artist, to engage or maintain through the vocal registers. If you engage more M1 musculature through the vocal registers, you are bridging “late”, if you are engaging less, you are bridging “early”. Sometimes these two different approaches to register bridging are also referred to as, “bottom-up” training and “top-down” training when discussing training techniques that either encourage more M1 strengthening or more M2 (head voice) coordination work. With the TVS Methodology, both “bottom-up” and “top-down” techniques are taught.

 

A critical lesson to learn from this is that both “bottom-up” and “top-down” training techniques are important for singers to train. Students need to train the body to be able to engage the intrinsic musculature of the voice with many different levels of musculature to enable their voices to have many different sound colors to use as artists.

 

Although there are other training programs that would focus on one or the other, at TVS, we insist that you understand and train to do both so that you can have more stylistic options and colors to use as a vocal artist.

 

Refer to The Foundation Building Routines and the specialized onsets in this training program to get a good understanding of what onsets and vowels are preferred for “bottom-up” training and which are preferred for “top-down” training. For now, here is a short list of the TVS specialized onsets grouped into two groups; coordination onsets and resistance onsets. Notice the Quack & Release Onset (*) fits into either group. It is both about coordination and formant tuning, bit if you need to work on compression, it would be used for resistance training.

 

The TVS Specialized Onsets

The Coordination, Respiration, Compression & Formant Tuning Group

“Early Bridging” Onsets / “Top-Down” Onsets

 

Pulse & Release Onset

Track & Release Onset

*Quack & Release Onset

Wind & Release Onset

Messa di Voce Onset

 

The Strengthening, Endurance, Belting & Resistance Group:

“Late Bridging” Onsets / “Bottom-Up” Onsets

 

*Quack & Release Onset

Dampen & Release Onset

Attack & Release Onset

Contract & Release Onset

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My opinion:

To bridge early is to achieve what you want first, then fine tuning it. To try and stretch chest to its limits and hoping your headvoice, an untrained, unsure coordination just magically takes over is doing it purposefully the hard way, not necessarily gaining any benefit on the way.

... And usually no matter who the teacher is they will tell you to go easy first, then, when the voice is ready (ie. The coordination is already ingrained with exercises, so the singer can blend/bridge/connect, something that every single singing program advocates, at least the ones I've used) and ONLY THEN does the teacher (or the program's routine structure) advocate adding mass.

Consider that.

Also, I challenge anyone anywhere to watch Daniel's "how to sing like anyone" video trinity, apply what he says immediately alongside the video just for shits and giggles and see what happens. I don't care who you are, the (imitation to) falsetto to soft to medium to loud to overdrive approach just works. It's not a thing of belief, it's an intuitive progression towards any note in your range with just about any tone, virtually effortlessly.

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I sent you a private message videohere but I guess you did not see it. This guy is very famous singer from china, he sing even better than the women! He is not from a rich family and although I cannot 100% say he is natural... he had no lessons. Before show we see him jumping up and down lol no lip rolls or humming xD 

I'm not a vocal coach or ENT and have not no right to give advice so I am not giving advice. Watch the clip at 3:20 and 4:56 the 1st clip is more recent the 2nd clip was years ago. What do you hear when comparing the clips? His speaking voice is low tenor, so inspirational for me, and I hope you guys find it useful. He is not pulling chest, it sure sounds like it though.

 

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My opinion:

To bridge early is to achieve what you want first, then fine tuning it. To try and stretch chest to its limits and hoping your headvoice, an untrained, unsure coordination just magically takes over is doing it purposefully the hard way, not necessarily gaining any benefit on the way.

... And usually no matter who the teacher is they will tell you to go easy first, then, when the voice is ready (ie. The coordination is already ingrained with exercises, so the singer can blend/bridge/connect, something that every single singing program advocates, at least the ones I've used) and ONLY THEN does the teacher (or the program's routine structure) advocate adding mass.

Consider that.

Also, I challenge anyone anywhere to watch Daniel's "how to sing like anyone" video trinity, apply what he says immediately alongside the video just for shits and giggles and see what happens. I don't care who you are, the (imitation to) falsetto to soft to medium to loud to overdrive approach just works. It's not a thing of belief, it's an intuitive progression towards any note in your range with just about any tone, virtually effortlessly.

 

Khassera,

 

PRECISELY.  YOU NAILED IT...  That is a message I have been trying to communicate to students and the market for some time. I have worked hard to make sure that both approaches and sets of techniques are included in "4Pillars". 

 

Great post... and anyone that reads it should really take it to heart. 

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He committed to practicing every day where he has to run the voice up his range and he had to avoid any kind of bridging, no letting go into falsetto, no transitioning...nothing... just had to run the full voice up all through just sheer will and determination.

 

So any scale, any siren any voice exercise had to be done in full voice.  No use of any heady placement, just pull up chest higher and higher.....

 

I wonder,,,,,Would the voice eventually find it's way all the up the range?

 

It depends on the singer. For some singers it's easier to sing powerful, and others are better at singing lighter.

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I pushed chest for 3 years guys. Had a really, really heavy G4, G#4 was even more tense, and A4 was the miraculous sometimes note.

 

It fatigued my supporting muscles surrounding the larynx, and could get a bit windy or brute force, but I could sing for a couple of hours every day and never went hoarse. It just hit a wall though.

 

Even David Ruffin, one of my heroes who I've heard what sounded like possibly a brute forced  C5, he used falsetto all the time and could sing in various lighter coordinations prior, back with the Temps:

 

 

And even before he joined motown, he'd been singing since very early childhood, his earlier stye was lighter and wasn't pushing very much:

 

 

And well... Once I started singing Eddie Kendricks, learned to bridge, and lighten my voice, things improved pretty steadily for me.  I think people can push chest pretty high, but I see no reason why anyone would restrict themselves to this and only focusing on this is likely a range dead end.

 

The only reason I didn't use lighter voices, was I thought they would all suck forever. 90 percent of my favorite singers used some kind of lighter phonation at least some of the time, but I didn't even realize I could make mine not suck. That's probably the biggest problem beginners have is either being afraid of sounding like a girl, or not getting immediate results and thinking it will suck permanently so they push the one that sucks less. 

 

Guys like Ruffin learned how to use their whole voice. They didn't get where they wanted to be by relentlessly pushing chest. I don't see any real benefit to it. And from personal experience, I would have been a pretty cool Joe Strummer type of character (and I love Joe!), but if range was important to me, forget it.

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Khassera,

 

I can apprecaite what you're saying, but it's not (to me anyway) the "only" way.

 

Felipe,

 

I can't answer because I hate those terms.

 

Jack Cee,

 

He's very impressive.

 

I believe (lately) there are singers who will benefit from technique that avoids constriction and strain from the get go, like Daniel and others advocate. This is a perfectly fine way to train.

 

But lately I'm also believing that there's something to be gained from fearlessly working with some of it, but then finding your way out of it.

 

I.o.w., work under a little strain and constriction, then figure out ways to alleviate it. I'm not saying it's for everyone, and not saying you push and strain your ass off to get better...just that you can work and train with some, and then learn to avoid it.

 

I find that the singer has to get to a point where he can tell good tension from bad tension. Then work with that good tension, and make it work for you.

 

Sounds crazy, I know.

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I think what Bob is saying is if you can sound good just yelling and pulling do it. which is fine if you dont want to achieve the ability too sing many different styles.  Cobain didnt need to sing like steve perry or stevie wonder or david ruffin, he was an artist. Artistry is artistry.  

 

that is all fine and dandy but this is a VOCAL TECHNIQUE forum not a "hey if it sounds good go for it forum"

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I can apprecaite what you're saying, but it's not (to me anyway) the "only" way.

Great, I didn't say it was.

I believe (lately) there are singers who will benefit from technique that avoids constriction and strain from the get go

Can you name a single singer who'll benefit from embracing strain?

But lately I'm also believing that there's something to be gained from fearlessly working with some of it, but then finding your way out of it.

So you'd rather run through a maze than o straight to the cheese? I can understand it's much more rewarding, but I can't understand how it could be rewarding enough when a single lifetime is nowhere near enough to master the tonalities and agility (what with the braincell deathcount and all, learning is constantly more difficult as you age) to justify spending an unnecessarily large amount of energy working to bridge effortlessly.

You do get that what you're proposing is we both would get paid 7usd and hour to do a job, only you'd have both of your arms sawed off just to make it more challenging, right?

I.o.w., work under a little strain and constriction, then figure out ways to alleviate it.

Paradoxically enough arriving at the same goal via different means. In this case a more strenuous, possibly traumatizing/demotivating route.

I'm not saying it's for everyone, and not saying you push and strain your ass off to get better...just that you can work and train with some, and then learn to avoid it.

Or you could learn to sing well without strain, then add it in just for the hell of it and see how much fun it is. Come on, Bob. :D

Sounds crazy, I know.

Well, it does sound different, but I hope it works for you. ;)

Edit: also, the brain works in anway that the way you practice fine motor skills (such as singing) will be the way you perform those high level skills. So you practice with strain to manage strain: you'll always sing with strain... Until you don't. And when you don't and you're singing effortlessly, thus having arrived at the same goal as the light approach, can you say you benefited from the heavy approach?

Consider that too. ;)

Edit2: if this thread was just about stylistic choice then disregard what I said.

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I think what Bob is saying is if you can sound good just yelling and pulling do it. which is fine if you dont want to achieve the ability too sing many different styles.  Cobain didnt need to sing like steve perry or stevie wonder or david ruffin, he was an artist. Artistry is artistry.  

 

that is all fine and dandy but this is a VOCAL TECHNIQUE forum not a "hey if it sounds good go for it forum"

 

I believe Cobain had some kind of technique though. Possibly unhealthy, but he usually sounded similar from performance to performance, so he must have had a a skill that was reproducable. If he didn't have some kind of consistent technique he wouldn't have had such a consistent timbre as you can only maintain a consistency in tone by reproduction of a movement.

 

Pulling chest in itself is a technique as far as I understand. As far as I understand there is a lengthener muscle in the larynx, and pulling chest would involve the folds to keep stretching and stretching until they are very very tight and making heavy contact. When I do this my voice even feels rigid and less manueverable: heavier.

 

I assume because the musculature is so engaged in keeping the folds taught, that the body has more trouble making fine tuned adjustments, which is true for pretty much any other muscle in the body when under heavy use (imagine trying to draw with a 5 pound pencil).

 

There is another muscle, which is not a lengthener, and allows a different movement of the vocal folds which can allow less contact as far as I understand? This is falsetto release. To me when it is releasing in this direction is when I think of my voice as going headier.

 

Trying to keep the stretch engaged in itself could be considered a technique. I've been there, and I've done it. It feels like a really heavy powerful sensation. Like you're lifting something very heavy. I sung like that too, like I was always under weight.

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...Cobain... usually sounded similar from performance to performance, so he must have had a a skill that was reproducable. If he didn't have some kind of consistent technique he wouldn't have had such a consistent timbre as you can only maintain a consistency in tone by reproduction of a movement.

Amen.

I assume because the musculature is so engaged in keeping the folds taught, that the body has more trouble making fine tuned adjustments, which is true for pretty much any other muscle in the body when under heavy use (imagine trying to draw with a 5 pound pencil).

Amen.

Unless.. You start out with a LIGHTER PENCIL LMAO! And you switch progressively to a heavier pencil only after you've mastered drawing with the lighter one, because shit, you can't lift 300 before you lift 200, right? Am I alone here? Can I get an amen?

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Well if it is about going up on chest voice (loud, open and defined vowels), I began training for real in this manner, and I do it with a lot of people who in my opinion need to address this, so there is nothing new about it and as far as I know, that's how most of classical teachers would approach a new student.

 

However, chest voice itself needs a lot of corrections to be registered in the manner I understand as more efficient. So just picking someone and telling him/her to yell it out will not give the same result.

 

With males I believe its a good idea to work like this up to around G#4/A4. And there is no need to "pull" or strain to do it. Feels quite good actually.

 

 

This is done in M1, but is not the same as M1 register. You can sing softly in M1, there is no specific quality to it, its just a coordination...

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Amen.

Amen.

Unless.. You start out with a LIGHTER PENCIL LMAO! And you switch progressively to a heavier pencil only after you've mastered drawing with the lighter one, because shit, you can't lift 300 before you lift 200, right? Am I alone here? Can I get an amen?

AMEN! Oh lawdy, such a dandy smart man, my my!

@Felipe. I agree. I was ONLY belting until a little while ago. And A4 was my ceiling And it was a note that was "magical". When i say magical i mean that it sometimes was easy to do and sometimes imposible. And i must say that i still want to be able to belt at least up to C5, but i understand the importance and benefit of "bridging early"

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I believe Cobain had some kind of technique though. Possibly unhealthy, but he usually sounded similar from performance to performance, so he must have had a a skill that was reproducable. If he didn't have some kind of consistent technique he wouldn't have had such a consistent timbre as you can only maintain a consistency in tone by reproduction of a movement.

 

Pulling chest in itself is a technique as far as I understand. As far as I understand there is a lengthener muscle in the larynx, and pulling chest would involve the folds to keep stretching and stretching until they are very very tight and making heavy contact. When I do this my voice even feels rigid and less manueverable: heavier.

 

I assume because the musculature is so engaged in keeping the folds taught, that the body has more trouble making fine tuned adjustments, which is true for pretty much any other muscle in the body when under heavy use (imagine trying to draw with a 5 pound pencil).

 

There is another muscle, which is not a lengthener, and allows a different movement of the vocal folds which can allow less contact as far as I understand? This is falsetto release. To me when it is releasing in this direction is when I think of my voice as going headier.

 

Trying to keep the stretch engaged in itself could be considered a technique. I've been there, and I've done it. It feels like a really heavy powerful sensation. Like you're lifting something very heavy. I sung like that too, like I was always under weight.

yes some kind :mellow: and so does lemmy. 

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