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"Bottom-Up" Training, Should It Be Considered? (Techniques For Belting)

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Felipe, I'm trying to answer .....

 

In no way am I advocating yelling up the voice, spatting, etc.

 

and actually I'm not saying to "pull up" or "drag" anything either, it's just a term.

 

I'm saying basically pretending or acting on the voice as if there were no falsetto or no head voice (as we are told the head voice is or sounds like), no place to transition to, to go into, to bridge over to...no lighter voice....

 

As each day goes by I find more and more the way up the voice (if you work at it) the "help up", comes down to how you shape the throat.  

 

There are basically 5 vowels, but when you view them as merely throat shapes there are are many amounts of adjustments within those 5 vowels.

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yes some kind :mellow: and so does lemmy. 

 

This is as close as I could get.

 

https://app.box.com/s/x6c7mq9m0d1zyeev56ah8yz1vq3v04an

 

It feels like a sloppy vowel between ih, eh, a, and er. With a light twang, medium high larynx, and maybe a tiny bit of the inward inhale sensation. I found it helped to yelp and almost yodel at first, he has a lot of falsetto flips on onsets and releases.

 

If someone wanted to train something like this, it's probably possible to find a way of doing it. It's long term health is probably the main concern. ;)

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It depends on the singer. For some singers it's easier to sing powerful, and others are better at singing lighter.

 

For sure. Guys, you know why we keep going around in circles on the same discussions, year after year... even though it's fun and all... there are just way too many variables and ways to configure the singing voice. You have;

 

- Gender

- Anatomy you are born with

- Age

- Learning abilities

- training and singing experience to assist in muscle memory

- different sized jaw bones, mouths, tongues, palettes and vocal tracts

- Dialect or native language influencing vowels and attractor states

- Vowels and all things related to the formant

- Different levels of compression and/or the ability to compress at different levels (Martin's point above...)

- Different levels of vocalis, CT strength and endurance

- air capacity

- The ability to deal with mental fear and self talk.

- Different programs that train in different ways.

- Whether or not someone simply practices or not

 

.. and I have missed a lot more... 

 

Every voice is like a face, its different. 

 

Bob, some people can pull the hell out of their CT and make it work... a minority. Another group can "kinda" do it and "kinda" make it work... most people cannot, IF... they are beginners. 

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 if you can sound good just yelling and pulling do it. which is fine if you dont want to achieve the ability too sing many different styles.

 

This is a really good point... and I would like to follow through with this point and say,... THEREFORE,... train both "pulling" techniques and learning how to configure inside of M2.  You have to do both guys.

 

Guys, can I just point something out, and I have to believe, the other teachers would agree.  About 90% of my clients are beginners or at least beginners at singing. And You have to know,... beginners typically cannot do "bottom-up" / "pulling" techniques out of the gates... if they do, your going to have a huge failure on your hands. They CAN... practice onsets that build a foundation for that, such as a dampen & release or attack & release onsets (glottal attacks)... to get there... but just flat out doing frontal assaults into the vocal break with your constrictors blazing... is not advised.  I'm not just defending my argument here... Im just telling you, this is the reality of what real students can or cannot do in the beginning.

 

Now, once you get some foundation built, then you can ease into it. How long that takes depends on the individual and their level of commitment (practice). 

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Bob... In my opinion, the best way to make sure of what you are using, is to control both. Wouldn't you agree?

Now, I believe its indeed important to know WHAT you are working with and what are the goals and possible applications of that. To avoid frustration and disappointment.

In any event. I suggest to not think of chest and head as being registers OR qualities. They were meant to reference a sensation, and in my opinion, they work best in that manner, and can be useful.

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I was thinking of this and I'd love to hear your opinions, especially from the voice teachers.

 

Let's say a singer tried an experiment.

 

He committed to practicing every day where he has to run the voice up his range and he had to avoid any kind of bridging, no letting go into falsetto, no transitioning...nothing... just had to run the full voice up all through just sheer will and determination.

 

No need to hypothesize anything, I've been doing your experiment for three years and I'm still not hitting F4s. :D

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No need to hypothesize anything, I've been doing your experiment for three years and I'm still not hitting F4s. :D

 

Thats hilarious... Pretty much sums it up... Jeremy, some people spend a life time doing it, and it's still not working?! :wacko:  

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My experience on this matter is I did Ken Tamplin's program for 6 months. When I started I could bridge after a couple of weeks, do sirens through my passagio and all the exercises all the way through. When I went from his CD1 to CD2 he was talking a lot about doing all of these exercises in full voice, dragging chest up to at least a G4. When I started this everything went to shit. Unfortunately I didn't realise it at the time. I thought if I pushed my M1 register to the top every day it would eventually grow. It didn't. At all.

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Btw. I think Ken Tamplin has a good product. And he encourage to do the exercises really light at the beginning, but for me it was way too soon to start this M1 pulling when I did. And as a beginner, Ken Tamplins instructions was not clear enough. Working with Robert and the 4 Pillars now and satisfied with that :)

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My experience on this matter is I did Ken Tamplin's program for 6 months. When I started I could bridge after a couple of weeks, do sirens through my passagio and all the exercises all the way through. When I went from his CD1 to CD2 he was talking a lot about doing all of these exercises in full voice, dragging chest up to at least a G4. When I started this everything went to shit. Unfortunately I didn't realise it at the time. I thought if I pushed my M1 register to the top every day it would eventually grow. It didn't. At all.

 

 

To be honest i dont even consider belting as a proper way to sing. Head Voice is to me, nothing more than resonance shift and relaxation and not voice or tone quality. I only see belting as something to add effect and power to some notes. I cant imagine doing a 2-3h show with each song with passages around A4-D5...

 

But then again im newbie and know shiz xD

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Yes Felipe, I agree.  I don't look at the voice (anymore) as having registers.

 

When I practice and it's a full voice power day, it isn't about how high I can pull chest, it's just running up the voice with no blockage.

 

Ah, hard to explain.

 

I wish we had a better term in this discussion than bottom up or pulling chest.

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Yes Felipe, I agree.  I don't look at the voice (anymore) as having registers.

 

When I practice and it's a full voice power day, it isn't about how high I can pull chest, it's just running up the voice with no blockage.

 

Ah, hard to explain.

 

I wish we had a better term in this discussion than bottom up or pulling chest.

 

Strong upper register? Powahhh? :P

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To be honest i dont even consider belting as a proper way to sing. Head Voice is to me, nothing more than resonance shift and relaxation and not voice or tone quality. I only see belting as something to add effect and power to some notes. I cant imagine doing a 2-3h show with each song with passages around A4-D5...

 

But then again im newbie and know shiz xD

 

I dig the refined user name!  Much easier to look at than all those letters, numbers, underscores, etc.   B)

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I dig the refined user name! Much easier to look at than all those letters, numbers, underscores, etc. B)

Hehe ty jeremy. it was kinda "omg" xd...and in adition you can call me King now..

P.s. its late. Elvis has left the forum xD

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Btw. I think Ken Tamplin has a good product. And he encourage to do the exercises really light at the beginning, but for me it was way too soon to start this M1 pulling when I did. And as a beginner, Ken Tamplins instructions was not clear enough. Working with Robert and the 4 Pillars now and satisfied with that :)

 

Thanks for the shout out Ken, I appreciate you sharing your sincere feelings about this. It is a message I keep trying hard to "shout" into this noisy market... students have to be really careful about this. The "bottom-up", chest pulling ideas have validity, it is just that... you have to approach it in a careful process and be sensitive to your students capabilities, especially beginners. Anyways... really glad to hear that "Pillars" is helping you. This is precisely why I made the video below... so that people like Ken could gain some more insights on the risks of just doing head long assaults into a world of constriction.

 

How long have you had "4Pillars"?  What have you found to be the most helpful about it?

 

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Yes Felipe, I agree.  I don't look at the voice (anymore) as having registers.

 

When I practice and it's a full voice power day, it isn't about how high I can pull chest, it's just running up the voice with no blockage.

 

Ah, hard to explain.

 

I wish we had a better term in this discussion than bottom up or pulling chest.

The term I like is one voice.

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I thought Michael Jackson was a supernatural chest-puller... after some very thorough analysis I realize that he secretly switches around F#! He tricked us all, the tone is extreme consistent throughout registers, HEE-HEE.

 

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Thanks for the shout out Ken, I appreciate you sharing your sincere feelings about this. It is a message I keep trying hard to "shout" into this noisy market... students have to be really careful about this. The "bottom-up", chest pulling ideas have validity, it is just that... you have to approach it in a careful process and be sensitive to your students capabilities, especially beginners. Anyways... really glad to hear that "Pillars" is helping you. This is precisely why I made the video below... so that people like Ken could gain some more insights on the risks of just doing head long assaults into a world of constriction.

 

How long have you had "4Pillars"?  What have you found to be the most helpful about it?

 

You're very welcome, just being honest :)  I've had it for about 4 months. That's a really hard question, it's such a comprehensive product. The most helpful was anyway the 3 lessons with you, trying to save up some money for another one soon  ;)

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You're very welcome, just being honest :)  I've had it for about 4 months. That's a really hard question, it's such a comprehensive product. The most helpful was anyway the 3 lessons with you, trying to save up some money for another one soon  ;)

 

Ken... are you the young fella from Sweden?  Your response is bitter sweet. Im happy that it is all helping you. Ken, it is true, "4Pillars" has become a comprehensive thing which is great, but look,.. just focus on understanding and mastering the onsets, understanding and mastering the acoustic modes (vowels), and learning how to put them all together into logical combinations with sirens and the other workouts. In a sense, the TVS Method includes the experience of giving you the "tools"/techniques that you can use to create your own workout routines. That is the point of the training routines in the back of the book. 

 

Choose your acoustic mode, choose your onsets, choose your vocalize and create your own routines to work on the issues you feel you need to work on. Any challenge you may have, can be fixed by creating the right combination of onsets, vowels and vocalize... so use the content that way. Also, never stop doing the resonant tracking, its just good vocal health... both registers!  And always make time for both sets of onsets.. not just the coordination, formant tuning onsets, but also the resistance training onsets... for your strength, endurance and belting skills... belting skills is extremely important!

 

If you are the Ken I think you are... go to your TVS online virtual HUB folder that has all the recorded files of your lessons, notes, homework and routines in it... I just put in a new training routine for you that is the latest update. It should make sense to you. It is simple and efficient! Be sure to synch your TVS Virtual HUB.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions and yes, lets get together as soon as possible... and always, always... make time for singing after you train. You have to use songs to trouble-shoot problems and learn how to make the onsets, articulators, vowels, etc... work inside of lyrics.  ;)

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Nice Rob!

 

JackCee,

 

Michael Jackson could sing with many different blends of chest and head voice musculature.  If he wanted to remain thick and chesty, he could and did on a lot of tunes.

 

Transition points can be changed once you develop a lot of skill to the point of feeling like you have one voice all the way from the bottom to the top.

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Ken... are you the young fella from Sweden?  Your response is bitter sweet. Im happy that it is all helping you. Ken, it is true, "4Pillars" has become a comprehensive thing which is great, but look,.. just focus on understanding and mastering the onsets, understanding and mastering the acoustic modes (vowels), and learning how to put them all together into logical combinations with sirens and the other workouts. In a sense, the TVS Method includes the experience of giving you the "tools"/techniques that you can use to create your own workout routines. That is the point of the training routines in the back of the book. 

 

Choose your acoustic mode, choose your onsets, choose your vocalize and create your own routines to work on the issues you feel you need to work on. Any challenge you may have, can be fixed by creating the right combination of onsets, vowels and vocalize... so use the content that way. Also, never stop doing the resonant tracking, its just good vocal health... both registers!  And always make time for both sets of onsets.. not just the coordination, formant tuning onsets, but also the resistance training onsets... for your strength, endurance and belting skills... belting skills is extremely important!

 

If you are the Ken I think you are... go to your TVS online virtual HUB folder that has all the recorded files of your lessons, notes, homework and routines in it... I just put in a new training routine for you that is the latest update. It should make sense to you. It is simple and efficient! Be sure to synch your TVS Virtual HUB.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions and yes, lets get together as soon as possible... and always, always... make time for singing after you train. You have to use songs to trouble-shoot problems and learn how to make the onsets, articulators, vowels, etc... work inside of lyrics.  ;)

Just had a look at it, looks great! But what I said wasn't meant in any negative way, I'm in no way fluent in english so I may have just used the wrong words. In that case, I'm sorry. What I meant was that 4Pillars got it all, and I have discovered and tried out new things just recently. Will try out the new routine  :)

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Transition points can be changed once you develop a lot of skill to the point of feeling like you have one voice all the way from the bottom to the top.

 

I do agree with you here. However, I do believe the later transition points the more fatiguing it will likely be on the voice (specifically the folds themselves). It seems logical to me that the faster the vibration rate (frequency/pitch) and more forceful the contact area of the vocal folds would increase risk for nodules, swelling, etc.

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