Difference between people born with high notes and trained singers

[Alex123]

My question is how people who can sing high notes from their childhood without any training differ from people who can't? Is this because of their vocal apparatus is different or their way of singing in the shower differs from other people's way  , so that they automatically train their voice. For example, it is believed that Freddy Mercury was able to sing high notes without training. So, how do they get this smooth passage of voice all the way up? I got also another question: can trained singer, who was not able to sing high notes without training, match those with innate abilities in terms of sound quality, the way their voice sounds so natural in lows and highs, not squeezed or distorted or unnatural on high notes. I heard many, many famous singers, whose voice seems unnatural after passagio. Thanks in advance!

[Khassera]

My question is how people who can sing high notes from their childhood without any training differ from people who can't?

Different speaking habits.

Is this because of their vocal apparatus is different

This is never the case.

or their way of singing in the shower differs from other people's way , so that they automatically train their voice.

This is most likely the case.

For example, it is believed that Freddy Mercury was able to sing high notes without training.

I know tons of people who can project clear, perfectly adducted high notes but can't sing to save their lives. I know people who never use headvoice or notes above E4 and sing better than most people I know.

So, how do they get this smooth passage of voice all the way up?

This isn't consistent with your original question. I thought it was about high notes, not actually negotiating the passaggio. Two different things, both of which take practice, trial and error.

I got also another question: can trained singer, who was not able to sing high notes without training

..? So are you talking about a trained singer who's trained to become a better singer, ie better at projecting and singing effortlessly regardless of the pitch?

match those with innate abilities in terms of sound quality, the way their voice sounds so natural in lows and highs, not squeezed or distorted or unnatural on high notes.

Basically you're asking "can a trained singer sing better than an untrained singer who sings good?" There's really no answer to it other than that anyone without amusia or dysphonia can learn how to sing. High and low, connected and seamless. With practice. The practice can be directed (lessons/programs) or innately learned (imitation and habit) but both routes take practice. It can't be avoided.

You need to define what you mean by a trained singer. If it is a person who can project clear and consistent tone effortlessly and freely, doesn't the question really solve itself? A trained singer will "outperform" an untrained singer every time.

I heard many, many famous singers, whose voice seems unnatural after passagio. Thanks in advance!

Please post samples of these unnatural sounding singers, and post some natural sounding singers too so we know what you're talking about.

[Elvis]

I think it more of the intent to sing. For example if a person at the age of 14-15 starts to sing actively he has 5 years on me to reach a goal. I dont think anyone is born with good singing voice and it depends mostly on time spent practising. If i sing 15 min a day and someone else sings 2-3hours and really actively disects and learns the song, guess who will be better( not neccesarily but lets assume we both train witb correct placements). Noone was great straight out of the womb. And the reason you think they are naturally gifted is because you see the phase of his singing when he was already esablished As a singer.

You cant know how long it took freddie mercury to achieve his level of technique before the world actually got to hear it.

As for high notes thats physiological. Some people speak on notes like C4 and D4 so naturally they will have high notes easily down. But their low notes will be weak as hell. And also the genre of music is greatly important. If you like Johhny Cash or some theathery music, lower thicker baritone bass would be preffered, but if u wanna be Rob Halford or Geoff Tate then natural Counter Tenor will have an easier time.

P.S. Mirko Cro Cop Won yuuuhuuu

[Khassera]

And the reason you think they are naturally gifted is because you see the phase of his singing when he was already esablished As a singer.

Let this sink in.

P.S. Mirko Cro Cop Won yuuuhuuu

Haha, effing A! CroCop's the shizzle!!

[JohnnyL]

 can trained singer, who was not able to sing high notes without training, match those with innate abilities in terms of sound quality, the way their voice sounds so natural in lows and highs, not squeezed or distorted or unnatural on high notes. 

 

You're talking about individual abilities here. Some can, some can't. If you're not a natural - give training a serious try (and I mean at least a year) and see what happens. 

 

Freddie Mercury is one of my all-time favorite singers, he really stands out from the rest - for me. However, he apparently had a bad case of vocal fold nodules and some other issues that could have been mitigated with proper training. 

 

 

And seriously - what's the deal with high notes? When I've started taking lesson I asked my wife who stands out for her as singers, she said: Mark Knopfler and Leonard Cohen. I really like Muddy Waters for example... no big high notes there... one can be a pro singer while sticking to baritone happy areas.

[Khassera]

I saw a busker in Exeter who sang awesome. My friend told me he knew the woman, apparently she'd been homeless for years and has never taken any music lessons.

Was she a natural? An untrained singer? Living on the streets singing for 6-10 hours a day, 7 days a week? See what I'm getting at? Having never taken lessons doesn't mean a singer is untrained.

Untrained vs trained is just another x vs y -cop out and an excuse to forgive yourself for not singing like someone else. Don't forgive yourself, assume a determination to get better until you feel like you've attained all you can attain.. Or until you die.

[Gsoul82]

I think you're complicating things. Kids naturally have high voices, so they can sing higher notes easier. There's no need to compare yourself to "natural singers". If you practice, you will sing amazingly in time. You have the luxury of a faster rate of progress because, unlike "natural singers", who just sing songs over and over again, you can work on exercises meant to improve the voice and improve quicker. You seem to be fascinated with high notes. If you sing high often enough, you will be able to do high notes too. It's nothing that's incredibly difficult. I just hit an A5 for the first time yesterday. Just practice practice practice. There's nothing to it but to do it.

[Elvis]

Let this sink in.

I might didnt phrase that the best way. What i meant was, that you dont know how long it took him to get to the level they were the moment they started getting reckognition. They may have been really bad singers but had an equaly bad bandmates who grew together as musicians to a point where it all stared to sound good, and then we hear about the singer and think he is naturall because there is not alot of singers who actually talk about how they trained and stuff like that. Gonna embed a vid so you see what i mean.

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Im on my cell so sry for retarded embedd

[Gsoul82]

You're talking about individual abilities here. Some can, some can't. If you're not a natural - give training a serious try (and I mean at least a year) and see what happens. 

 

Freddie Mercury is one of my all-time favorite singers, he really stands out from the rest - for me. However, he apparently had a bad case of vocal fold nodules and some other issues that could have been mitigated with proper training. 

 

 

And seriously - what's the deal with high notes? When I've started taking lesson I asked my wife who stands out for her as singers, she said: Mark Knopfler and Leonard Cohen. I really like Muddy Waters for example... no big high notes there... one can be a pro singer while sticking to baritone happy areas.

 

I guess some people are just amazed by them. It's the same thing as when somebody growls or sings a fast, long melisma. People don't know what it takes to do that stuff.

[Khassera]

I might didnt phrase that the best way.

I totally got what you meant and I agree. I bet Bruce Dickinson sucked ass at some point. Now all you hear is "oh he's a natural, never took lessons." that undermines all the work he's ever put into becoming a great singer.

[JohnnyL]

I guess some people are just amazed by them. It's the same thing as when somebody growls or sings a fast, long melisma. People don't know what it takes to do that stuff.

 

Good point. I see it with other instruments - what many aspiring musicians forget is that most audiences grow tired of virtuoso stuff after the first minutes and then mostly want the musician to communicate with them. 

[Elvis]

I totally got what you meant and I agree. I bet Bruce Dickinson sucked ass at some point. Now all you hear is "oh he's a natural, never took lessons." that undermines all the work he's ever put into becoming a great singer.

Yeah thats my point exactly. All we hear is end product. But how it was made is ussually a proccess of trial and error or what i like to say "fake it until you make it" xD. Human body is not made for singing and as such noone is born to sing. I like what Ken Tamplin says "singers are only singers because they have the guts to be one" its a bit simplified but you get the gist.

[Elvis]

Good point. I see it with other instruments - what many aspiring musicians forget is that most audiences grow tired of virtuoso stuff after the first minutes and then mostly want the musician to communicate with them.

So true. I love Yngwie Malmsteen and he is my favorite guitar player but after a few minutes its just ******* ***.

[Alex123]

As for high notes thats physiological. Some people speak on notes like C4 and D4 so naturally they will have high notes easily down.

 

Yeah, that's what i want to know, what exactly is in physiology? I understand that there are people with high pitched voices, but Mercury's speaking voice is not that high and he can take low notes, and still can sing high

 

And seriously - what's the deal with high notes? When I've started taking lesson I asked my wife who stands out for her as singers, she said: Mark Knopfler and Leonard Cohen. I really like Muddy Waters for example... no big high notes there... one can be a pro singer while sticking to baritone happy areas.

 

That's just a matter of taste, I like to listen to Mark Knopfler, but there's so few singers who sing in baritone and whose songs I want to sing that I badly need to learn high notes 

[Khassera]

Yeah, that's what i want to know, what exactly is in physiology? I understand that there are people with high pitched voices, but Mercury's speaking voice is not that high and he can take low notes, and still can sing high

Practice.

[Elvis]

Alex i feel you bro. When your favourite singers are Dio Dickinson Tate and Halford its hard to settle for Mark Knopfler.

Also the lenght of vocal cords can be the determining factor in speaking voice pitch. But you dont need to worry about it. I think like most of us you just want to be able to sing high and not spend any time and will into it. Just train if u love singing. If not then you are wasting time. Commitment and love is cruicial in any training proccess.

[Alex123]

Please post samples of these unnatural sounding singers, and post some natural sounding singers too so we know what you're talking about.

 

For example, many songs by Three Dog Night:

Especially part at 1:00

For me the voice is unnatural. Freddy has natural voice

[Khassera]

Well, I think your problem comes down to a matter of stylistic choice.

But I'll tell you what both singers have in common: an idea of what they want to sound like, and a consistent routine to practice it. Either innate or taught.

[EveryVoice]

I've thought about this recently. I think that singing when young could develop a 'natural' voice. If children are using their voices and pretty much hitting the correct notes without straining then their voice will develop better. I think that's what a lot of 'natural' singers did.. just sang a lot when they were young. I then think about myself... I don't really remember singing that much when I was a child but what I do remember is sitting in the car with my dad singing along to Bon Jovi but not correctly! I was doing like alot of people do.. I was singing an octave below the original.. so just in a relaxed way that's no stronger than talking. But I thought I was singing properly when I wasn't. My dad also does and still does this and thinks he's singing properly now in his 50s when all he's doing is quietly 'singing' the notes a full octave below.

 

This singing / talking an octave below the original song carried on with me until I was about 15 where I began trying to sing whilst playing my acoustic guitar and realizing how quiet I sounded compared to the guitar.

[JohnnyL]

That's just a matter of taste, I like to listen to Mark Knopfler, but there's so few singers who sing in baritone and whose songs I want to sing that I badly need to learn high notes 

 

I've been learning for a year now and my high notes are still pretty thin. It takes work. How long have you been practicing? changes happen slowly but they happen all the time and commitment is very important.

 

And if, within a few years you find out you have to 'settle' for Mark Knopfler (@Elvis, WTF?) - well, it's not such a bad place to be. Singing is something that can be done in more than one way - it's not situation where you are either in or out. But seriously - practice. 

[Gsoul82]

For example, many songs by Three Dog Night:

Especially part at 1:00

For me the voice is unnatural. Freddy has natural voice

 

There's nothing unnatural about that video...lol. All of that is attainable...

[Elvis]

I've been learning for a year now and my high notes are still pretty thin. It takes work. How long have you been practicing? changes happen slowly but they happen all the time and commitment is very important.

And if, within a few years you find out you have to 'settle' for Mark Knopfler (@Elvis, WTF?) - well, it's not such a bad place to be. Singing is something that can be done in more than one way - it's not situation where you are either in or out. But seriously - practice.

Johhny if u are one of those who idolises a singer or artist because of their position in music and think of them as an institution i wont argue with you. Knopfler is not a singer i enjoy listening and i appreciate him as a guitarist more then i do as singer. And singing like Knopfler is settling for me personally.

[Alex123]

Well, I think your problem comes down to a matter of stylistic choice.

But I'll tell you what both singers have in common: an idea of what they want to sound like, and a consistent routine to practice it. Either innate or taught.

 

Maybe it's not just stylistic, but unproper training? I hate many contemporary voices such as Muse singer has cause they all sound too "metallic" to me. I'd prefer Beatles, the voices of all 4 of them sound natural.

[ronws]

All of these threads boil down to one thing. High notes of usable volume and desired tone.

 

Hardly ever does someone come in and talk about developing a baritone or basso range, though it has happened.

 

Full of assupmtions. Who said Freddie Mercury could sing high? Did you know it is drummer Rogert Taylor who did the high note in "Bohemian Rhapsody"? Or is this just another Queen lovefest? I don't mind that.

 

Is there a difference between someone who somehow lucked into singing and another had to train for it? Yes, the guy with training will probably last longer.

 

Everyone's physiology is different. And since fachs don't matter outside of opera, quit trying to be another "fach." If tenor does not exist outside of opera, just sing high without being a tenor, or whatever you are.

[Khassera]

Maybe it's not just stylistic, but unproper training? I hate many contemporary voices such as Muse singer has cause they all sound too "metallic" to me. I'd prefer Beatles, the voices of all 4 of them sound natural.

There you go. As many tastes as there are men. "Unproper training" is a pretty ambiguous term. What's improper (not unproper) about it? It seems like he's got a consistent vocal projection, so he's quite clearly practiced his instrument.

Stylistic choice is to sing dopey with a robotic vibrato in every vowel.

Stylistic choice is to sing with a bit more twang, using distortion on emotional phrases like "on with the show!"

Nothing to do with "being born with high notes." i think I was born with high notes. My daughter was born with high notes. We come out screaming.