Can no longer push...?

[Billy Budapest]

So I'm experiencing this new(ish) thing...

I've been doing a lot of sirens and oohs and EEs up from my chest to my head voice and back down. I tell ya, if I ever have to sing a song where the only words are "You Fool Me", I will be styling!

 

While I wait for that song to turn up - I've noticed where I USED to be able to kind of squeeze and push (right around A) things in my throat COMPLETELY shut off and it will no longer work. I can no longer PUSH THROUGH or Muscle Through stuff. Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna be a pushy (read that last word carefully kids!) singer, but there have been times when I've been in the middle of a gig and had to push to make it through. In fact there are a few songs where I need a bit of muscle like that behind it in spots. Not to hit the note, but to get the effect the original singer has.

 

What I'm finding is that if I lighten up my air and don't push, I make it with minimal effort, but it's a different and not tight voice (good). However, it's not a big voice (bad). Just to reiterate- I don't want to have to push to get notes, however, there are times where that tightness is good for affect and can help as long as you don't ride that all night. AND I'd also think that by doing things with the head voice that it wouldn't mess up my upper chest voice. It's like my head voice is saying "DOOD, you need to go easy here... ooh! it's saying "You (Can't) Fool Me" - damn, so close to my hit song....

 

So my question to you all is - after you've worked and worked on your head transition and sirens, etc. do you notice that you cannot push any longer in your transitional area without basically shutting things off? Basically, that you can't take your chest up to that part of your range without it giving you issues and kind of shutting you down.

 

 

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I have found the exact opposite actually. I used to push EVERYTHING. Now that I've backed off and rebuilt my voice around building up the head voice and transitioning sooner, when I try to go back and belt with power and constriction it's pretty sick. In a good way. I definitely would not want to sing like that for 2 hours but it's greatly improved the range and I can do it with less volume. Problem is if I sing like that for too long it's very hard to go back to super light. It's strange though. I almost never sing how I used to but when I have tried it a couple times it was there in spades.

[Robert Lunte]

Billy,

 

I have heard you mention this "voice shutting off" situation before and I'm afraid, I don't think that is a normal experience.

 

In regards to your "push" that you are referring to, sometimes what feels like a push is really just a contraction, or resistance from muscles that are contracting, namely the CT... and this is usually a healthy thing, if it "locks" and stabilizes. It is just a good belting position.

[Robert Lunte]

Welcome to the forum Phil... could you please upload a picture to your profile... thanks!

[ronws]

I have found the exact opposite actually. I used to push EVERYTHING. Now that I've backed off and rebuilt my voice around building up the head voice and transitioning sooner, when I try to go back and belt with power and constriction it's pretty sick. In a good way. I definitely would not want to sing like that for 2 hours but it's greatly improved the range and I can do it with less volume. Problem is if I sing like that for too long it's very hard to back to super light. It's strange though. I almost never sing how I used to but when I have tried it a couple times it was there in spades.

Phil, how's it going? How's Steve?

[Phil Perry]

Phil, how's it going? How's Steve?

Lol. He's great. Keeping a very low profile these days

[KillerKu]

This sounds strange. Before I learned to bridge, I'd just hit a wall and the folds would break apart in a self protection mechanism from pushing chest.

 

But after I learned bridging, I can still push chest, but the bridge moves around a bit if I do and as long as I don't push chest to the point of the folds breaking apart with self protection if feels like I can still push some then bridge.

 

It feels like if I am 50-80 percent to the point of nearing a falsetto break, I could transition from there. It feels like singing only got easier for me. It sounds like a unique situation, I wish I could understand it better or help. I know that it's like to hit a wall, but it feels like as long as I make 'some' changes before it reaches critical tension, or whatever, it works.

[Elvis]

This sounds strange. Before I learned to bridge, I'd just hit a wall and the folds would break apart in a self protection mechanism from pushing chest.

But after I learned bridging, I can still push chest, but the bridge moves around a bit if I do and as long as I don't push chest to the point of the folds breaking apart with self protection if feels like I can still push some then bridge.

It feels like if I am 50-80 percent to the point of nearing a falsetto break, I could transition from there. It feels like singing only got easier for me. It sounds like a unique situation, I wish I could understand it better or help. I know that it's like to hit a wall, but it feels like as long as I make 'some' changes before it reaches critical tension, or whatever, it works.

Thats what i always said. Falsetto (open glottis) is a bodies self defense mechanism from blowing your chords

[KillerKu]

Thats what i always said. Falsetto (open glottis) is a bodies self defense mechanism from blowing your chords

 

Well it happens when the stretching muscle reaches a limit.

 

If you sing high incorrectly my suspicion is there may be ways of passing this self protection mechanism and damaging your folds in the long term. Logically

 

more closure (impact) + more vibrations per second (use) + stretching the folds as much as possible

 

Seems suspicious to me. Back in the day, when I pushed chest, I didn't sing with twang compression or any of the fancy singing stuff. Personally, I'm glad, as I think if I combined all of this fancy stuff with the same kind of effort it might have been worse.

[VideoHere]

Bill, not sure exactly what you mean.  Can you try to explain it again from a different angle?

 

I do know from all my falsetto work it's very hard for me to get airy in the falsetto..maybe that's not what you're talking about though.  

[JackCee]

So my question to you all is - after you've worked and worked on your head transition and sirens, etc. do you notice that you cannot push any longer in your transitional area without basically shutting things off? Basically, that you can't take your chest up to that part of your range without it giving you issues and kind of shutting you down.

 

Using narrow vowels often has the same result for me, eventually you are going to have to do the sirens with open vowels. Oo and Ee sirens are not a power exercise, they are flexibility-based exercises. A wise coach once told me to know "why" I am doing specific exercise, you are doing an exercise that encourages bridging early but trying to sing a song that encourages bridging late I am not a vocal coach so I could be wrong, trust yourself, and learn to trust your coach or vocal program.

[Robert Lunte]

 

 

Oo and Ee sirens are not a power exercise, they are flexibility-based exercise.

 

Good point Jack!  If you try to power these vowels, you'll get chewed up and spit out... they are more about resonance and lowering acoustic mass...  

[SingBetterIn3Days]

AHHHH! Just the word push...OUCH.

While there may be other effective ways to do this, my preference is that you have a voice without vocal damage when you are done. 

So, you can try any of the exercises that you are doing at a lower volume. Think level 1-10, try level 2, 3, etc. Comfortable and open. If you can't do it quiet yet, don't try it loud. WARNING: the sound quality may be different at lower volumes. That is ok for now. 

LIke Robert says, resonance. 

Quieter volume can help you to determine the natural resonance. 

[Robert Lunte]

C'mon "HOMEY"... No PUSHY PUSH... Stop Pushing On High Notes and start amplifying formants!!!

[Adolph Namlik]

C'mon "HOMEY"... No PUSHY PUSH... Stop Pushing On High Notes and start amplifying formants!!!

​Great Video, Maestro !

It's good to see that you re-posted it.

 Edit : ("It's good to see that you re-posted it.") A great video for our newer members or those who haven't yet had the opportunity to view this video.

A little side note and a bit of humor : Great choice in a keyboard !  Looks just like mine

 

[VideoHere]

For myself, I like to feel like I'm landing on a high note from above and dropping down onto it.

[Owen Korzec]

I don't have nearly the experience you do but from what I've learned, you have to warm up both the lighter side of the voice and then after that ease into the more powerful side (hopefully not pushed, but chesty) otherwise when you go for power the voice won't be ready and it will just hurt if you try to push it. Whereas if you warm up that power properly it sits in correctly with the freedom. However you will not be perfect overnight and incorrect methods of pushing for the chesty sound will generally disappear once you sing correctly and it takes time to grow the strength of the correct way to add chestiness. So during this transition the voice can go through a bit of a weak phase. That could be the issue, but I'd bet it has more to do with not consistently and carefully warming up the powerful side of your voice before every gig.

Going into a gig only having warmed up parts of the voice (like light ee and oo sirens) and neglected other aspects sounds like murder to me. Get the whole range at all the vowels and dynamics you can and take your time warming that all up in a systematic manner. It may take hours, with several rest periods in between to avoid wearing yourself out at the same time, so almost like several short warm ups. If you can't fit the time in your life to take the time to warm up properly, however long that takes, you will just have to keep your expectations low at the gig.

I think warming up correctly and from start to finish is really important for anyone going through changes in vocal habits, from pushing to not pushing for instance. To my current knowledge, the ultimate warm-up would be starting basically with vocal therapy exercises to undo anything that happened wrong the night before, going all the way through a smooth middle path of warming up gradually higher and chestier (first separately and then finally together) and ending your warm up with running some tricky song fragments, and not fatiguing the voice at all during this process...it is a lot to ask but if you are serious, you chase after this kind of quality of preparation and I believe it is what prevents problems on the gig. My opinion could change over time but my best performances have always been the ones I warmed up the most smart and most slow & steady for. This approach also helps set you up to remain in good voice for several days because the more you consistently maintain good technique the less warming up it takes to get into it the next day which means more time to rest and keep the voice fresh. I've only experienced this effect once but it honestly blew my mind, probably the best vocal days of my life. On day four I could sing tenor phrases cleanly with only 15 minutes warm up.

[Robert Lunte]

For myself, I like to feel like I'm landing on a high note from above and dropping down onto it.

​"Top-Down Onsets".... For TVS Students ... what Bob is saying = W&R & M&R Onsets... Although M&R would not appear in singing... in the context of singing it flys by quickly, so it can only be W&R.

..But Bob's point... coming in from the top-down, releases constriction, and is the best way to set resonant placement and frequency/pitch.

[Robert Lunte]

it takes time to grow the strength of the correct way to add chestiness.

Indeed...

The best time for me to fire up my mic, headphones and DAW to record is after a full day of training with students, because I'm very warmed up... Warming up properly is SO important. But the bigger trick is knowing what and how to warm up. There are different approaches, but simply doing lip trills is not going to work in my opinion. A good warm-up, has to include some heavier, resistance movements that get the blood and coordination flowing in the CT/TA, vocalis and other "framework" for belting...  and I'm not saying that hard core belting is what your warming up to do... I'm saying that the workouts and techniques that are also used for developing belting skills and strength are great for warming up... with these techniques in my program, you really move some "stuff" around... and can sing in any mass typically. 

Passive, light, warming up.... less effective in my experience... get after it when you warm up, singing is not a passive musculature thing often... at least if your a rocker and singing more "intense" genres. But there again, good resistance training will serve you well for anything.