Worried on head voice/flageolet

[MrLilliz]

In CVT terms:

How can i be sure that i'm not doing flageolet below high C? I was warned that it might lead to a split in the voice. I always thought i was in falsetto, aka neutral with air, but i'm not so sure any more. I can't get any power at all on those notes.

[Steven Fraser]

In CVT terms:

How can i be sure that i'm not doing flageolet below high C? I was warned that it might lead to a split in the voice. I always thought i was in falsetto, aka neutral with air, but i'm not so sure any more. I can't get any power at all on those notes.

MrLilliz... sing a medium-soft upward siren with a firm closure on the uh or ah vowel. This should position your resonances so you will have a better shot at it.

[Douglas]

In CVT terms:

How can i be sure that i'm not doing flageolet below high C? I was warned that it might lead to a split in the voice. I always thought i was in falsetto, aka neutral with air, but i'm not so sure any more. I can't get any power at all on those notes.

Hi MrLiliz,

I am a student not an expert but I have been working on flageolet a lot of late.

I was wondering if you could share what high C you are speaking of? Is it C5 in scientific notation, sometimes refered to as the tenor high C or C6, sometimes refered to as the soprano high C?

Thanks for the clarification and for posting your question.

Doug

[MrLilliz]

MrLilliz... sing a medium-soft upward siren with a firm closure on the uh or ah vowel. This should position your resonances so you will have a better shot at it.

Thank you, i will try that.

Hi MrLiliz,

I am a student not an expert but I have been working on flageolet a lot of late.

I was wondering if you could share what high C you are speaking of? Is it C5 in scientific notation, sometimes refered to as the tenor high C or C6, sometimes refered to as the soprano high C?

Thanks for the clarification and for posting your question.

Doug

I'm speaking of C5. I am fairly sure that i'm doing flageolet above that note, and i can reach an F#5. However, i'm worried that i might be doing it below C5, instead of "normal" voice. I only feel confident singing a B3 or C4, all notes above those sound really weak.

The CVT book says:

'If you sing with a vocal flageolet below the high C you will only get a very thin sound that cannot be made louder' and

'If you try to make it louder it will create a break or split in the voice'.

This is exactly what happens to me.

[Spectrum]

MrLilliz,

I had the same problem! I'm not sure what the current CVT book says, but a 2000 copy I picked up says to simply sing at such a high volume that the flageolet cannot occur; it will disappear with time and practice.

[MrLilliz]

MrLilliz,

I had the same problem! I'm not sure what the current CVT book says, but a 2000 copy I picked up says to simply sing at such a high volume that the flageolet cannot occur; it will disappear with time and practice.

I have the 2000 copy but i couldn't find that anywhere. Thank you!

[Douglas]

Hi everyone,

The current edition of the CVI book says the same thing Spectrum has shared.

I have been working on singing in the very high part of the voice in neutral and have run into some of the same sorts of issues in terms of being in flageolet when I don't mean to be. I am not sure that the stuff in the CVI book about flageolet is all that well developed. Or at least their definition of flageolet is not nearly as clear as the definitions of the modes that they have etc.

If I understand the book correctly, they say men singing above C5 are always in flageolet. I suppose this could be true depending on the definition of flageolet. But to me there is a voice that is not particularly powerful that I can use to sing above C6 easily which I have come to call whistle, based on other books. Perhaps this is only a subset of flageolet.

The thing that works best for me to stay in neutral rather than ending up in whistle, is to sing with more support, louder and with more power, and I dont end up in whistle even in the very high part of the voice. It doesn't take a lot. ( I do admit I can sing MUCH higher in whistle though)

Again I am not exactly sure about flageolet vs whistle.

I hope this helps some, and MrLilliz please let us know how your concern turns out.

Doug

P.S. In the 2008 edition, the discussion of what to do about a break in the voice caused by "vocal flageolet" is on pages 79 and 80.

[MrLilliz]

I just had a major breakthrough, not related to this subject but AWESOME nevertheless. I just hit a B4 (YES, almost C5) in overdrive or curbing, certainly not flageolet!! No way I could sing that note softly, i'm just shouting, but it doesn't hurt at all.

OnT: the book is a bit unclear on flageolet and whistle but as I understand it whistle is a version of flageolet and it can be done in other ways.

[Steven Fraser]

I just had a major breakthrough, not related to this subject but AWESOME nevertheless. I just hit a B4 (YES, almost C5) in overdrive or curbing, certainly not flageolet!! No way I could sing that note softly, i'm just shouting, but it doesn't hurt at all.

OnT: the book is a bit unclear on flageolet and whistle but as I understand it whistle is a version of flageolet and it can be done in other ways.

MrLilliz: You mean the B almost an octave above middle C? that's great. Be prepared for your upper voice world to explode, dude. There is much more that is possible.

Congrats!

[Steven Fraser]

Hi everyone,

If I understand the book correctly, they say men singing above C5 are always in flageolet. I suppose this could be true depending on the definition of flageolet. But to me there is a voice that is not particularly powerful that I can use to sing above C6 easily which I have come to call whistle, based on other books. Perhaps this is only a subset of flageolet.

Douglas: C5 is the C above middle C. Unless they have a highly specialized definition of flageolet, this does not jibe with the face-melting screams of male rock singers, wails of top tenors in gospel groups and the highest operatic tenor notes. All these folks go up to F and G5, or higher, in full modal voice.

In historical context, 'flageolet' (French for a sort of whistle) was the name assigned to a vocal production which, in female singers, sounds a bit like a whistle due to the simplicity of tone quality and high frequency of the fundamental. In current thinking, this part of the voice is likely characterized by the alignment of the fundamental or first harmonic with a formant other than F1. Candidates for this are F2, F3, and the singer's formant cluster of F3-5. Though less commonly used by male singers, the mechanics of the vocal fold motion and acoustics of the formant structures are available for us guys, too.

Anyone with the CVT book care to share the definition found therein?

[VideoHere]

I just had a major breakthrough, not related to this subject but AWESOME nevertheless. I just hit a B4 (YES, almost C5) in overdrive or curbing, certainly not flageolet!! No way I could sing that note softly, i'm just shouting, but it doesn't hurt at all.

mr. lilliz. i had a similar triumph on that full voice b4 myself, and i got it even better sounding with somewhat less effort when i vowel modified. let's say it was an "ah" on an octave exercise, gradually and very subtle convert from singing an "ah" sound (father), to "oh" sound (over) to an "oo" sound (look) this "oo" is magical as you will sense a pocket up in the soft pallette which gives it a release and ring that has to experienced.

i'm a tenor so i convert to this "oo" around a4 sharp

thanks to steven and others i'm on my way to c5 sharp. without the vowel mods. it's gonna be very difficult

[Douglas]

Anyone with the CVT book care to share the definition found therein?

Hi Steven,

On page 67 of the 2008 addition of the CVI book they explain flageolet and that it is required above C3 for women and C2 for men. But they don't use scientific notation. In their notation C1 is middle C. The section says:

"Very high notes are probably created by increased muscular tensions preventing parts of the vocal cords from vibrating. This particular muscular tension is called 'vocal flageolet'."

They go on to explaing that this makes the sound an octave higher and that it is required to sing above high C.

Their convention for naming notes can be found here:

http://forum.completevocalinstitute.com/viewtopic.php?t=4482

Scientific notation can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation

I hope this helps some.

Doug

[MrLilliz]

Thanks a lot, guys!

I'm not satisfied yet, though I want to be able to sing stuff that isn't all-out shouting up there. I can't make the notes 'softer' without going down in pitch at the moment. Is this going to work itself out as I get used to singing up there?

[Steven Fraser]

Hi Steven,

On page 67 of the 2008 addition of the CVI book they explain flageolet and that it is required above C3 for women and C2 for men. But they don't use scientific notation. In their notation C1 is middle C. The section says:

"Very high notes are probably created by increased muscular tensions preventing parts of the vocal cords from vibrating. This particular muscular tension is called 'vocal flageolet'."

They go on to explaing that this makes the sound an octave higher and that it is required to sing above high C.

Their convention for naming notes can be found here:

http://forum.completevocalinstitute.com/viewtopic.php?t=4482

Scientific notation can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation

I hope this helps some.

Doug

Doug: Oh, yes. This helps bunches, on multiple levels, but the place to start for me in this explanation is the word 'probably'. The presence of 'probably' indicates speculation on the part of the writer.

The description as it is seems to speculatively associate this term with what used to be called 'zipping' of the vocal bands. I would have expected CVT to be much crisper in this definition, since its something that should be visible laryngeoscopically.

However, the claim that this (zipping) moves up the frequency of the voice an octave is a gross oversimplification of what actually happens. The reality is much more interesting, too. :-)

I should write an article about it ;-)