Tonyy Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 One video can adequately explain what this topic is about: How do you train to maintain such high tessitura? And how much about it is simply down to genetics and vocal fach? I am not even sure if the really top end can be extended (I can only reach about BB5 in falsetto normally, but certainly not as tessitura), so perhaps someone here can enlighten me.I have noticed that a lot of singers of the genre seem to lose the high notes as they grow older. Does anyone here know what that is about? Maybe they could never maintain the high tessitura to begin with, or perhaps their voice deepened... Or maybe they just got lazy... Which do you think it is? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackCee Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Great thread, you are asking a lot of difficult questions! How to train and maintain a loud powerful F5-D6 with distortion and not lose them as you get older. Honestly, I have no idea!!!! Maybe some more experienced guys can help you out. The voice deepens as you get older but certain operatic tenors are able to sing with good quality till the day they die. Many rock singers lose their highnotes as they become older yet some guys like Dio and Bruce Dickinson manage to keep it. The biggest issue I see in myself and many of the rock singer is FORCING the voice - you can force sounds and sound good! This is the downfall of many younger singers.. there is an old Italian quote that says "Do you want to sing well for 1 day or for your entire life?" Often people choose the former and end up losing their voice later in life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotlung Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I haven't gotten to that age. Honestly I think that, apart from the usual good techniques of maintaining your voice even when not singing (hydration, etc), a lot of these tessituras need to be maintained by relying on leaning in on a strong head voice (rock singers that go for very chesty, gritty sounds, almost like shouting, tend to lose those ranges more quickly). That said, they've probably been developing the head voice by singing so often in it that they get really comfortable with enough to maintain such tessituras. I could be wrong on this though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Doesn't allow me to play your video.....I think it might help to get us a quick refresher on the meaning of tessitura because it is not the same thing as range...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessitura 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyy Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 Doesn't allow me to play your video.....I think it might help to get us a quick refresher on the meaning of tessitura because it is not the same thing as range...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessitura Hmm... Hard to say why the video won't work for you. Any others experiencing issues? Anyway, the video shows off some high notes of Daniel Heiman. Arguably one of the highest voiced metal singer of all time, who pretty much lives in the 5th octave.Just to be clear, I am talking about both tessitura and range. Singing in the C5+ area constantly and hitting a D6 are both quite a feat. The 2nd paragraph is mostly about tessitura. It's not that the singers who transpose at older age can't hit the higher notes, but that they can't maintain the tessitura. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 One video can adequately explain what this topic is about: How do you train to maintain such high tessitura? And how much about it is simply down to genetics and vocal fach? I am not even sure if the really top end can be extended (I can only reach about BB5 in falsetto normally, but certainly not as tessitura), so perhaps someone here can enlighten me.I have noticed that a lot of singers of the genre seem to lose the high notes as they grow older. Does anyone here know what that is about? Maybe they could never maintain the high tessitura to begin with, or perhaps their voice deepened... Or maybe they just got lazy... Which do you think it is? He's My favourite singer, his highnotes are the coolest ive seen so far. But the thing is it's very demanding singing that way, couple of songs sure. But going on tour singing 5 nights a week with lost horizon material Will most likley wear you out it's alot down to technique aswell, i can hit all those notes but i would need to write for My own voice IF id wanted to be consistant singing in that range alot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 So, then, that brings the question, maybe, that these guys who sang high for a long time, who might have been classically typed as a lower voice, were singing out of their usable range? Or that they were needing a different sound to stay in that part of the range? The body of a young man forgives a lot. The body of an old man does not. And I know that is hard for the younger guys here to contemplate and accept but, to quote Bill Murray from "Stripes," "That's the fact, Jack!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 And, while we are on topic of how this guy sounded on a recorded, mixed, mastered, and professionally produced ablum, perhaps this young man has some wisdom to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyy Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 And, while we are on topic of how this guy sounded on a recorded, mixed, mastered, and professionally produced ablum, perhaps this young man has some wisdom to offer. Hey ronws, interesting insights!I actually have extensive experience from mixing mastering and producing. I would say... this guy is right that vocals are processed a bit, but also dead wrong thinking that the processing will fix you up or completely change your voice. Processing might enhance (or degrade, lol) things a bit, but fixing something that is broken is a different thing. Although for screams there is more to be done, since you can add distortion...I guess my main point concerns certain part of the population who might interpret the message of the video incorrectly. Unfortunately some people who receive negative feedback think it's because they have not been produced/mixed/mastered/auto-tuned. That is in almost all cases NOT CORRECT, they most likely suck because they... suck. Thankfully a lot of bands these days have live recordings and in those cases the truth comes out (barring the bands who use a barricade of backing tracks), apart from a little compression, EQ and maybe delay/reverb what you hear is usually what you get. Of course there are many instances where the audio quality is just bad, in such cases most people can track it down to the audio quality rather than the quality of singing.Daniel Heiman / lost horizon vocals are quite unprocessed anyway, compared to what the guy in the video is doing. He definitely is the real deal, there is no question about that.What you are hearing is not a bunch of studio tricks, I guarantee you that (although, he definitely did not score that in one take).Apologies for my sidetracked rambling. Just wanted to say that the people who know their discipline know their discipline and it's not just a studio illusion. I guess everyone here who has recorded something already knew this though. But some part of the population is unfortunately misguided and think that they can just hit the mic up and sound like professionals with sufficient studio editing. I want to put an end to such myths, although not prevalent here, they are VERY frustrating to the studio people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDEW Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just knowing that the singer is not singing the whole song in one shot should be of importance to new singers. We have seen videos of Dio and Lou Gramm( 2 gods of voice around here) recording one line over and over again until the sound and inflections are what they are looking for. When you are fortunate enough to hear the RAW recording you will find that even Dio and Lou sound thin until the soundman adds the effects....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyy Posted May 18, 2015 Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 Just knowing that the singer is not singing the whole song in one shot should be of importance to new singers. We have seen videos of Dio and Lou Gramm( 2 gods of voice around here) recording one line over and over again until the sound and inflections are what they are looking for. When you are fortunate enough to hear the RAW recording you will find that even Dio and Lou sound thin until the soundman adds the effects.......The first line is true, obviously you record the lines in studio many times so in that sense it's not all realistic. Some people compose themselves into a trap doing things in the studio they simply can't perform live. That being said, what you described maybe exaggerating the common situation a bit. I have seen a few singer sing an entire song by and large perfectly. Only autotuned a few shaky notes and did couple takes on some parts.It's funny, usually the voice is actually equalized to sound THINNER, or less muddy, taking the mids out. Like I said look at live videos to give you an accurate picture - they are pretty much unedited most of the time. A lot of them are actually buchered rather than enhanced by the soundman due to the "manufactured"-like nature of them. What really creates the fat is all the other sounds. Your voice isn't going to sound like an orchestra.But yeah, the theory that it's the soundman that will fix your voice is pretty much bunk. Let's not dwell into this topic any further though as it isn't the topic of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 I Youtubed this singer..didn't see much of him live.I don't sing nor usually like Heavy Metal too much, but speaking for me, you train to hang out up there, just like anything else...and once you're up there you can pretty much sit up there. It's when you have to drop down then head up again where it's get a lot more challenging.I personally think these notes have a perception of difficulty more than a reality.Here's a challenging little sucker, and all you need is A4!!Then: later: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 Well, Tony, I was sharing that not so much to say that studio tricks will fix a bad singer. I shared it to show that what you hear on the album is due to a really good recording and mixing guy doing a bunch of stuff. And, as you said, of that song, it was likely not done in one take. Which makes me wonder how it might be like to do the song live, on tour for a year, in a smoky hall with a breakfast of cold mcnuggets. And that's on a good tour. It can get worse, just ask Zakk Wylde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 @Tonyy.On the OP. This song has a lot of passages and lots of potential problems besides that really high section. In my opinion, just approaching the very high area is not enough and, I sincerely don't know to which extent its possible to have consistent performances doing this absurdly high stuff. I do know that if you play your cards right you can train to use these very high passages with comfort and without killing yourself in the process. But the challenge of singing this is that you have to deal with mid-range content, deliver good quality, and get to the very high sections still in one piece. If you waste your stamina with a problematic mid-range, the higher sections will simply not work and you will be wasted in the middle of the song (at what, 15 minutes mark? hehehe). So basicly you train to do the already not easy thing, controling low and middle/middle high voice, and on top you train to control all that absurdly high stuff too. You will have to work, a real lot . My advice is coming up with a long term plan on how you will get this done and make sure you have good orientation through this process. Are you already training? How? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotlung Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 There is a clip of Lost Horizon performing a live set (about 50min). Daniel Heiman is a real beast here, though it's the only clip of the band performing live that I can find. That said, I think it simply is a real feat to do those stuff (granted, he didn't sing 'Highlander (The One)', but I think such a song might be difficult even for him to nail consistently - you can already hear him going flat on some of the screams in 'Sworn In The Metal Wind'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 There is a clip of Lost Horizon performing a live set (about 50min). Daniel Heiman is a real beast here, though it's the only clip of the band performing live that I can find. That said, I think it simply is a real feat to do those stuff (granted, he didn't sing 'Highlander (The One)', but I think such a song might be difficult even for him to nail consistently - you can already hear him going flat on some of the screams in 'Sworn In The Metal Wind'). Yeah ive heard him live, he's a monster one of the coolest singers ive heard. However i dont think he goes above g5# live, all the A5's and above he usually sings lower.also highlander is a studiosong, it's completly (*auto edit*) up to be honest ive yet to this day heard a good cover of that song 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonyy Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here is an exercise that might work: Seems to have worked for him: Any thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here is an exercise that might work: Seems to have worked for him: Any thoughts on this? The hee yah exercise is one of my favourites, got it from James lugos program an moderator here on the forum really strong singer Also you should get Robert Luntes program the four pillars, it's outstanding when it comes to this it also allows you to dig in abit more on the folds wich is much closer to how Daniel heiman does it. The above exercises are are very light and falsettoish in quality(wich is the intention of the exercise) but if you work with the routines in pillars you will be able to give it a lot more gas Here's me doing some highshit, pillars helped me a lot into getting these soundshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs696FgrkXg 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsoul82 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here is an exercise that might work: Seems to have worked for him: Any thoughts on this? The hee yah exercise is one of my favourites, got it from James lugos program an moderator here on the forum really strong singer Also you should get Robert Luntes program the four pillars, it's outstanding when it comes to this, it also allows you to dig in a bit more on the folds which is much closer to how Daniel heiman does it. The above exercises are are very light and falsettoish in quality (wich is the intention of the exercise), but if you work with the routines in pillars you will be able to give it a lot more gas! Here's me doing some high shit, pillars helped me a lot into getting these sounds. Damn...You don't want to put that in the challenge topic, Jens? I know everybody would love to see that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Jens, you force me to be upset with you. You have replaced the video in the link from the one that showed you with a band, doing it live. I don't want to be upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Jens, you force me to be upset with you. You have replaced the video in the link from the one that showed you with a band, doing it live. I don't want to be upset.This is also "live" it's just from a lesson with a student, just recorded on my iPad with a backtrack from a computer. The other one is still up on my yt acc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Yeah, but I had linked in the band version and now, my link plays your newer version. Not much I can do about it. Just a little disappointed.It went from sound like a band to sounding like singing with a laptop into a phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 1, 2015 Administrator Share Posted June 1, 2015 Here is an exercise that might work: Seems to have worked for him: Any thoughts on this? The hee yah exercise is one of my favourites, got it from James lugos program an moderator here on the forum really strong singer Also you should get Robert Luntes program the four pillars, it's outstanding when it comes to this, it also allows you to dig in a bit more on the folds which is much closer to how Daniel heiman does it. The above exercises are are very light and falsettoish in quality (wich is the intention of the exercise), but if you work with the routines in pillars you will be able to give it a lot more gas! Here's me doing some high shit, pillars helped me a lot into getting these sounds. Damn...You don't want to put that in the challenge topic, Jens? I know everybody would love to see that.Thanks for pointing out that "Pillars" has been helpful for you Jens... If anyone has any questions about the compression techniques in "The Four Pillars of Singing", don't be shy.Good call Geoff...Yes Jens, paste your "highway star" into the "highway star" challenge so we can grow our archive there. Talk to you soon on and offline Bro...Coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jco5055 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 There is a clip of Lost Horizon performing a live set (about 50min). Daniel Heiman is a real beast here, though it's the only clip of the band performing live that I can find. That said, I think it simply is a real feat to do those stuff (granted, he didn't sing 'Highlander (The One)', but I think such a song might be difficult even for him to nail consistently - you can already hear him going flat on some of the screams in 'Sworn In The Metal Wind'). Yeah ive heard him live, he's a monster one of the coolest singers ive heard. However i dont think he goes above g5# live, all the A5's and above he usually sings lower.also highlander is a studiosong, it's completly (*auto edit*) up to be honest ive yet to this day heard a good cover of that songHave you seen this? <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-0Z7NVvCM9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> I can't see this in my country (US) but maybe you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jco5055 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 How do we insert youtube vids on the new forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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