Question for Ken Tamplin method users

[joshual]

Hi fellas,

I have bought last year the beginner and intermediate dvd for dudes from ken tamplin. I've worked on it but i had to stop for one reason: it makes me strain and support too much...

When i hear Ken doing the exercices i really hear a lot of support. So i tried to mimic him, but it didn't work for me. i felt too much pressure in my throat, and that's my main problem since i started singing. i want to get a robust but lighter tone on the middle voice (a la richie kotzen... ;-) )

In some recent posts i saw that many skilled people here have worked on his program and have really good results, guitartrek for example.

So i wanna know how did you approach the method, did you try to push as much as he do or just let go and do it your own way. Cause i know it's a really great program and i'm sure it can learn me a lot of things.

If some could post here or send me some samples of his exercices ( especially the A vowel modification ). I would be really happy ;-).

Thanxs again

Josh.

[VideoHere]

Hi fellas,

I have bought last year the beginner and intermediate dvd for dudes from ken tamplin. I've worked on it but i had to stop for one reason: it makes me strain and support too much...

When i hear Ken doing the exercices i really hear a lot of support. So i tried to mimic him, but it didn't work for me. i felt too much pressure in my throat, and that's my main problem since i started singing. i want to get a robust but lighter tone on the middle voice (a la richie kotzen... ;-) )

In some recent posts i saw that many skilled people here have worked on his program and have really good results, guitartrek for example.

So i wanna know how did you approach the method, did you try to push as much as he do or just let go and do it your own way. Cause i know it's a really great program and i'm sure it can learn me a lot of things.

If some could post here or send me some samples of his exercices ( especially the A vowel modification ). I would be really happy ;-).

Thanxs again

Josh.

josh, i borrowed the stage 1 program and i have to say it was awesome. what specifically did you have trouble with doing...."it's the la" exercises? maybe i could record something if you could be more specific.

[markgrubb@gmail.com]

Ken doesn't push / strain. Ken's pedagogy is a modified Bel Canto. He is supporting a lot; however, little air is passing across the vocal fold. The compression is happening through support from the diaphram, but the air flow is NOT held back by the vocal fold. Your description leads me to believe you are hitting the vocal fold with massive pressure. I experienced this when I studied SLS. Robert Lunte solved this problem for me in the first few moments of our first Skype lesson. Ken teaches the solution in the advanced course.

I want to encourage you to continue trying to solve this issue; however, I also encourage you to take a lesson with Ken or Robert, as hammering your vocal folds with air drys them out and may cause them to make contact (not approximate, but physically collide...leading to polyps and finally nodules).

I have taken lessons with both Ken and Robert am confident in both teachers knowledge and skill. Ken and Robert's pedagogues differ in that Ken will encourage belting then stepping into Head register at the pitches too high to belt in the given phrase (this is what Mix voice really means), thus Ken will encourage you to move from chest register to head register as late as possible then from head register to chest register as early as possible. Robert will develop your head register and encourage you to move from chest to head register as early as possible and from head to chest as late as possible. Neither is wrong, these are two experts on accomplishing the same healthy phonation / production in two different ways.

[joshual]

Bob,

my problem was not really on the vowel modification but more on how much i have to support, do i have to support as much as Ken does?

Mark,

I know that Ken doesn't push or strain ;-). The fact is that i only have this problem with Ken exercices. I have worked on the four pillars and took lessons with Robert and honestly i never had this problem.

This problem of support/strain is really incomprehensible for me... i used to be a natural "chest puller", getting the tone and high notes with lot of volume and power, i'm constantly fighting that. I have good results depending on the song/artist i'm workin on...

it's like if my ears always told me to mimic the singer i'm listening too. I can sing some thought songs (for example Static of Mr Big) but never could make a correct version of any U2 songs...

Maybe the problem comes from the different stylistic approach of both Robert and Ken? As you said "Neither is wrong, these are two experts on accomplishing the same healthy phonation / production in two different ways." but their respective programs leads you to totally different tones. Maybe that's why i am so confused.

Thanxs again to both of you, and really sorry about my language. Seems like i have to take some english lessons too lol...

I'll try to post a sample today of me doing the exercices.

[Kevin Lam@Enthuse]

Hi everybody out there,

God bless that there are finally someone to discuss how to work on these 2 outstanding vocal program. I personally think these 2 dvds are almost the best dvds we can get (we means who dun have a vocal coach).

I bought both Robert's and Ken's DVD years ago and I have something to share with you.

Joshual,

for pushing things on Ken's DVD, I think Ken's apporach have some aspects of "PUSHING" and it is somehow his way to make the Wailing/Belting sound. If you watch his Intermediate DVD (not the CD), you will find that he demostate how to "Push", but he will also show us how to do the "relax" tone on the same exercise. If you lean your sound/ cut back the air (not a lot), I think you can reduce some of the pushing.

Mark,

thx for comparing Robert and Ken's method. I believe they provided us the best vocal instruction program, some of the reasons is that they tell us where is their vocal break and how they manage their whole singing range.

About the Head Voice vs Belting things, I love Mark's defination

"Ken will encourage you to move from chest register to head register as late as possible then from head register to chest register as early as possible. Robert will develop your head register and encourage you to move from chest to head register as early as possible and from head to chest as late as possible."

To sum up, it is just a matter of taste. If you want to achieve a chesty belting voice like Eric Martin , I think Ken will be your pick. If you want some face-melting high head voice,

go for Robert Lunte!!!!

[Kevin Lam@Enthuse]

And, I found something interesting.

A lot of the successful singers in the music industry sing with only one of the above methods, I mean, it is rare to find singer to master both Chesty Belt and Head Voice. Like the new guy from Journey Arnel Pineda, he is King when he is singing belting style, but his head voice is a bit weak...

In my opinion, Steve Perry and Chris Cornell are some of the singers who can manage both Robert's and Ken's method well.

[joshual]

thanxs for your help Kevin In fact i'm more into Chris Cornell tone (or Richie Kotzen) and that's why i bought these 2 methods ;-)

It's seems that when i cut back the air i also put too much pressure on my vocal folds. It can maybe come from a lack of good support understanding...

[markgrubb@gmail.com]

Another key difference in TVS and Ken's pedagogy:

At TVS chest and head register are blended through vowel choice (covering). At TVS twang (singer's formant) is applied liberally to * aid in bridging chest to head passaggio and * produce a full voiced tone in head register (prevent falsetto timbre in head register) and * to create healthy dist / distortion on top of your clean tone (if desired, through extreme twanging). These are some uses of twang at TVS there are other. I simply want to point out that twang is a key part of low head tones sounding chesty and not with a falsetto timbre.

Ken's approach and resultant tone is different. One CRITICAL cornerstone to Ken's pedagogy is keeping an open throat, 'it's the LAH AH' and keep the back of the throat open like this always. This causes a lot of other things to happen in your vocal mechanism that result in the desired tone and healthy and repeatable results.

joshual - make sure your lower abdominals are not static (in a contracted state, but not moving). As Martin has pointed out before, 'movement' is necessary for support. Vocalist and teachers argue about what moves out and what moves in, at the lower abdominals (CVT and Lisa Popeil each present research on proper support, as improper support can result in singing pitches that go flat and in extreme cases improper support can result in a herniated diaphragm). Also, make sure the back of your throat is staying open by looking in a mirror while you are executing the exercise / singing the song.

I am not suggesting you don't already know this nor am I suggesting you are singing with improper support or that your throat is not 'open'; rather, I am simply sharing some thoughts.

[Kevin Lam@Enthuse]

it is so good that we are pointing out the differences between these 2 programs. Man.... 3 years ago, I thought that I can solve all the vocal range problems by mastering one of the program. For some singing style, yes! but for a modern vocalist, I think we hv to at least master 2 of them (some other skills too, to name a few).

Joshual:cool:, if you want to achieve Richie Kotzen's voice, for such a "Bad A$$" nasty voice, I think you have to master Ken's program. For Chris Cornell, well, his top range sounds exactly like Robert Lunte, yet his major mid-voice are quite similiar with Ken Tamplin.

[VideoHere]

interesting posts.

mark,

glad to hear from you man...you've got a way with words..i agree totally.

i don't know if anyone has ever tried roger kain's program, but if you have you'll see a completely different approach. you'd swear he is sending you down the down to vocal ruin, (his exercises are a bitch) but they have helped me a lot. i use and re-use just about all of the programs except for cvt (yet).

james lugo's is a recent purchase too i liked.

[VideoHere]

Bob,

my problem was not really on the vowel modification but more on how much i have to support, do i have to support as much as Ken does?

josh, i.m.h.o., (i'm just a singer) support is a big part of singing chesty up high. the trick i have found is you have to support in total synchonization with the chords.

you have to suppport the tone for the highs, but the trick is to "place" the pressurized air "against" the chords rather than "push" the air "through" the chords. you're (in a way) not exhaling (although you are) but the air almost seems "suspended" (it took me a while to grasp.)

i watch guys like lou gramm and cornell very closely.

if you look carefully gramm especially looks like he's jamming a ton of air pumping out these punchy sounds, but he really isn't. he's skillfully metering the pressurized air with strong support. hope i helped and didn't confuse you more.

like that bono chesty high note in "pride." he's placing the air under high pressure and support against the chords to hit that "name" note. if he didn't, and pushed it, the pressurized air would blow the chords apart and he's either crack or fry.

i've also learned how a singer looks singing, has nothing to do with how he sings.

[joshual]

So happy so many people joined this thread!.

I was really disappointed today with my singing and say to myself " ok, if there's something wong or if i missed something i have to get back to the start"... And i did it and...

I realize how much i did wrong on some basics exercices . I watch several times the starter exercices of Ken and i saw that even on the mmm exercices i was squeezing my voice to get the high notes ( not pushing but squeezing ) instead of opening wide the throat.

For support, i record myself and heard that i'm really blowing too much air and attack to much. I begin to really understand how it works and how i can fix it.

Today was a really hard day, but was so constructive. I'm going back to the basics and it's a damn good thing!!!

Honestly guys, you really rock! So many people helped me here, each one of your answer is so good! Can't thank you enough for that!

Josh, back on tracks lol

[VideoHere]

So happy so many people joined this thread!.

I was really disappointed today with my singing and say to myself " ok, if there's something wong or if i missed something i have to get back to the start"... And i did it and...

I realize how much i did wrong on some basics exercices . I watch several times the starter exercices of Ken and i saw that even on the mmm exercices i was squeezing my voice to get the high notes ( not pushing but squeezing ) instead of opening wide the throat.

For support, i record myself and heard that i'm really blowing too much air and attack to much. I begin to really understand how it works and how i can fix it.

Today was a really hard day, but was so constructive. I'm going back to the basics and it's a damn good thing!!!

Honestly guys, you really rock! So many people helped me here, each one of your answer is so good! Can't thank you enough for that!

Josh, back on tracks lol

it happens to all of us. i.e., if i miss some sleep, man, it it obvious. you can feel like you're starting from square 1, lol!!!

[ronws]

josh, i.m.h.o., (i'm just a singer) support is a big part of singing chesty up high. the trick i have found is you have to support in total synchonization with the chords.

you have to suppport the tone for the highs, but the trick is to "place" the pressurized air "against" the chords rather than "push" the air "through" the chords. you're (in a way) not exhaling (although you are) but the air almost seems "suspended" (it took me a while to grasp.)

i watch guys like lou gramm and cornell very closely.

if you look carefully gramm especially looks like he's jamming a ton of air pumping out these punchy sounds, but he really isn't. he's skillfully metering the pressurized air with strong support. hope i helped and didn't confuse you more.

like that bono chesty high note in "pride." he's placing the air under high pressure and support against the chords to hit that "name" note. if he didn't, and pushed it, the pressurized air would blow the chords apart and he's either crack or fry.

i've also learned how a singer looks singing, has nothing to do with how he sings.

Amen, brother Bob. I have also come to the same conclusions. What looks like a strain is not always a strain. What sounds like "chest" is not actually chest.

[Kevin Lam@Enthuse]

joshual,

good to hear you are on the track again! Cheers.

Dun be discourage by short-term drawback cause even Michael Jordan will shot "AIRBALL" sometimes.

[Robert Lunte]

So happy so many people joined this thread!.

I was really disappointed today with my singing and say to myself " ok, if there's something wong or if i missed something i have to get back to the start"... And i did it and...

I realize how much i did wrong on some basics exercices . I watch several times the starter exercices of Ken and i saw that even on the mmm exercices i was squeezing my voice to get the high notes ( not pushing but squeezing ) instead of opening wide the throat.

For support, i record myself and heard that i'm really blowing too much air and attack to much. I begin to really understand how it works and how i can fix it.

Today was a really hard day, but was so constructive. I'm going back to the basics and it's a damn good thing!!!

Honestly guys, you really rock! So many people helped me here, each one of your answer is so good! Can't thank you enough for that!

Josh, back on tracks lol

Josh, why dont you take three internet lessons with me and let me help you bro?! I promise you, you will find what you seek... how many lessons did we have, 1? I mean... roll up your sleeves, get out of the books for just a few moments and let me work with you for three hours. Its worth the investment. Hope all is well, and Ill be in France in February for a workshop in Toulouse BTW. www.thevocaliststudio.com/internet-lessons

[gno]

joshual - I was out of town last week and didn't see this post - sorry. Mark had some excellent insights and I'm glad you figured it out. For what it's worth: with me, Ken's approach clicked right away. The weight of his voice and the way he was singing in chest voice was similar to what I was already doing, so that part clicked. What was revolutionary for me was his vowel modifications to go high through the passagio. Ken's approach was different from my previous instructors in that previously I had been taught to really support (too much) in the passagio. With Ken's I actually found that I really didn't have to go to any real extreme "pushing" with my support. If everything was in sync, the higher singing required just a gradual increase in support. Anyway I'm glad you worked it out.