Is Singing Something People Are Born With?

[Jeremy Mohler]

I forget who the author is but I was Reading a book about mastery and a book writing author spoke about how he would take the greatest novels ever written and rewrite them by hand from top to bottom so he could learn a style of writing not that he was going to write like that but he wanted to learn what was making these writers so special.   He did this many times and then was writing his own books and became a great writer himself.  

Is is this book? http://www.amazon.com/Mastery-Robert-Greene/dp/014312417X

[ronws]

I have heard the greatest singer. And that is (insert your favorite singer). He kicks everyone else's butt. And he does it without breaking a sweat. And he walks on water and heals the sick and the blind. yeah .... right .....

There are singers who have had lessons or learned a few things at some point in time and either they forgot or they wish to hide it, as if to appear to magically have this ability. It's called lying. And yes, singers lie.

I think a person can become good at anything they do the right way for a while.

 

[Gneetapp]

I didn't want to reveal this, for I think many people are not ready to know the TRUTH, but you guys asked for it.

Some people are born extremely talented, and by that I mean people who play an instrument or sing unbelievably well at the age of 3-6 years old. 90% are asians, and the remainder are due to re-encarnation. They were extremely successful in their previous life, and for some reason, can still remember everything. It is scientifically proven!  That is why they don't need and never had any training, in this life, for they have busted their arses off in their previous life. So, even them had formal training, only not in this life. I sincerely hope I have closed the case. 

[Felipe Carvalho]

He said from the high C down, for the most part, he stays in his full or chest voice.  He called anything above that his half voice.

he said he drinks a lot of water and breath support.

Although missing a bit in regards to the adjustments on vowels, this seems very precise to me.

[Gneetapp]

wow, that is encouraging.  maybe I will do a little better my next go around.  

Lien, if you did train as much as you said you did, you have nothing to fear my friend. It is guaranteed that you will be the next Steve Morse on your next life. So, following this line of thought you just need to keep improving your vocal technique. You already know you won't get far with it in this life. But on the next one you are going to be the next John Cowan. Aren't you happy now?! ;-)

[Felipe Carvalho]

I have studied voice for years.  Through my studies I was able to develop to a high C.  I sang for many years and still do.

I just recently started studying.

 

?

 

[Gneetapp]

.    I just recently started studying.  However, if I so happen to make great progress, you know I will update you guys.    If this reincarnation u are talking about is true, maybe we will be in a band together next go around and u can do my backing vocals.

Hey man you can count on it! But you better come back filthy rich too, so you will be able to afford paying me. 

  

[MDEW]

I just RECENTLY started studying in what I would call a formal way with Ken's lessons.   Sorry about the confusion.

   I joined this forum only a few years ago, Had been singing in bands and Playing guitar and bass....... working the local area........... Asking those who I thought could sing pretty good the same questions ........... Got the same answers ........... Support, sing to the back of the room ........ Asking about singing High notes  ...........Just go for it don't hold back .................. Stuff like that Read books bought programs ......  I recently was able to get Roberts Program   "The Four Pillars of Singing" I haven't even started the Formal dedicated training (Just can't get the time). But looking over the program...Watching the videos......Grasping a few of the Concepts and working on one or two of the Exercises while driving and when I get spare time I have improved greatly .............. It is no doubt that if I had the time and followed his course with due dedication I could reach my goals quickly............. I have Faith in Ken also, along with  Daniel, Felipe, Jens .......... on and on ................I would also like to point out that I believe you are underestimating the Talent of Daniel, Felipe, Robert.............. What you see and hear on this forum is them giving examples and making videos of a few concepts to help us.........Or a project that is in the works and NOT finished, mostly to give an example of how things progress.

[KillerKu]

 

in the end if you dont help others understand the art the art gets lost and watered down.  If your buddy John could help people understand i am sure he would. Some singers just do and thats great.  Some people do and help others do. its all good…

From what I've read about their personality, a lot of the people who inspire me were some combination between crazy and kind of jerks on some level. Sinatra was known for tantrums (even threatening to have someone killed I believe). Lennon abandoned his wife and children. Ruffin was spousal abuse and serious cocaine addict. Nina Simone was bipolar and shot a kid with an air pistol for disturbing her concentration. 

They're all second hand stories, so I take everything with a grain of salt, but often where there is smoke there is fire. It'd be cool if being a nice person is what made art connect with others. I've got a theory that some people are less inhibited than others. People like Nina Simone may have not even known how to conform her behavior to others and social standards. It sounds great, naked, brutally honest, primal, sincere, and transparent, to me on a record because it is fiercely uncompromising.  But in real life people get hurt by the same personalities.

Little Richard was a voyeur, and did all sorts of crazy things, supposedly even getting in trouble with the law. Put the same guy behind a piano and get him screaming. Completely uninhibited. On fire. Off the charts, fiercely independent sounds. Jerry Lee Lewis married a 13 year cousin.

Nice people in general try to be nice and play by the rules. They often try to be nice with their music. Make sure it's safe, and doesn't hurt anyone's feelings and fits within a socially acceptable inoffensive box. When it sounds that way, a lot of times it doesn't ignite me in the same way as when they lose control. 

[Danielformica]

. Some singers just do and thats great.  Some people do and help others do. its all good…

[Danielformica]

heavier is all a matter of deciding to be heavier on a particular song or not. also on everyones perception of heavier. the technique is or should be the same so you could sing lighter or heavier your choice. long nights lots of different rep would usually incline me to go not so heavy as to i need to do it 3-4 days in a row.  I do a pretty heavy operaman  demonstration. though i wouldnt use it to sing pop and rock rep.

[Danielformica]

yeah phelps great..

[KillerKu]

One other thing I notice about Cowan.  This is one reason I pushed the physical component so much.  His voice can take an enormous amount of what call abuse.  I have personally seen him abuse his voice to the extreme.  He can distort, sing clear, sing heavy, scream,etc and do just has good the next night and the next, etc.  I think that was one of the things that was so hard for me to see how could pull off.  He never babied or coddled his voice but it just kept on working and still works.  

Few people, even professionals can tell abuse from a sound. There are usually ways of doing at least a similar sound. I know I pulled a lot of weight for quite a few years and never went hoarse or anything doing it. There wasn't much fatigue in my folds, but the support muscles surrounding my larynx would feel a bit fatigued. That is one of the more controversial aspects of singing but I was much healthier singing loudly in a way I knew how, than trying to force my voice quieter in a way I didn't know how.

But there are ways of engaging different mechanisms for distortion, scream, etc. I'm not sure if Tamplin is knowledgeable enough on all those different subjects (don't know him or have his material), but I know CVT did a lot of research into them with laryngoscopy and Dan can do them professionally. Maybe some voices can take more abuse, maybe some people sing safely in a way that sounds abusive. Once again you're trying to delve into someone else's body. You've gotta prioritize yours. Find what works for you. You seem to inherently want to fixate back to the unknowable with other singers. Learn yourself. What you can do. For all you know with a dialed in technique for a specific purpose you could outlast your friend.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Lien I am not sure of what you are calling heavy, but perhaps thats part of the problem? I believe you that you find his singing powerful and heavy, however, powerful and heavy (in the technical meaning of the word "dramatic") would ruin that song, in my opinion as someone that performs varied repertoire.

This is a heavy and dramatic imposition... In my opinion it sounds awful to perform this:

https://app.box.com/s/w59nmcjqpco9afh0or9vypjsq7jj0yae

This is what I would personaly use if I had this song on a repertoire, more on the center of my voice:

https://app.box.com/s/vcc0yve6wv5hgfh211nrobf4viz1potw

This is more narrowed, a direction that he takes on a lot of places during the song:

https://app.box.com/s/g26b2m8okq5d1m3z5s7gcxo8thf26v0m

 

Now the second sample may sound dull if you are looking for technical fancy details, but I guarantee you, it will work much better than both, at least on my voice. Its more natural, better articulated, easy to do, easier to identify, etc. That said, its perfectly possible to direct the training to a BIT more narrowed position to get the feel the you want more without sacrificing freedom and quality.

I am not sure what is it that you are looking for on technique to be "dramatic", and it may even be necessary in your specific case (depending on how your voice is currently) to go open and loud (although not darkening) first, but heavy is not a very precise way to describe this kind of singing. On CVT it would fall more into what they call "curbing", you will feel a kind of a hold, etc.

[MDEW]

    What you have in Mike Farris here is a perfect example of Twang. A little background of where I am at this stage being over fifty and just learning this kind of thing. If I had used that kind of sound in the Song type that I was singing I would have (and have been) laughed off of the stage. But it helps keep the folds together ...... Other things are going on here also ......... For one thing the energy and intention of the song. You cannot do this while you are being worried about hitting those notes or not. The drop of energy will work against you.

    I usually break on this kind of thing because in my head it sounds so funny...... I start laughing at the sound of it even though to other people it may sound cool. But for normal songs dialing back that sound just a little will bring you into a normal sound with the compression needed to keep hold while going through the passaggio.

   It was sounds like this and sounds like Elvis that I would use when learning.. then I would get the comment of sing like yourself instead of someone else......... They did not like the idea of me not sounding like me............. It was odd to hear those sounds coming out of this body................ From then on I would sing and sound like me when I talk.............. NOT GOD FOR SINGING....................I will give you one more hint ..............PLAY with the sound instead of trying to learn ............Trying to learn is like work ...............People tend to associate work with pain ............. Play, with pleasure ...........your body accepts more changes with pleasure than pain.

[KillerKu]

  It just sounds so nailed down with a tremendous foundation.

A lot of times what attracts me to vocalists is me chaotic element, or instability that puts me in suspense and on the edge of my seat. The Leaning Tower of Pisa looks like it's about to fall over and it's more interesting than a straight tower that looks like it could never fall.

I like when music gives me the sensation it could fall apart, explode, or implode at any minute. When the foundation is too solid, it can be boring, like a Straight Tower of Pisa.

[Steven Brown]

Mike Farris, no doubt about it, he has got it. Good stuff

[Felipe Carvalho]

@Lien I understand you, when it comes to the mechanical side, you can develop a lot of things to be near perfect, and his songs although very interesting are not as complicated as a Paganini's piece. If you were aiming to sing tenor arias like Ah Mes Amis or something similar, then yeah thinking of mechanics it really pushes the bar and not everyone would fit the role well.

What I wanted you to understand is that a lot of what is going on there is on the side of interpretation and performance, not so much on mechanics. Should we sit down and talk about it in a cold, strictly technical way, the way he sings "ever" on the chorus, has some unnecessary tension added, for example. I think its important to clarify this since you might go out of your way reaching for perfection just to find that perfect doesnt quite get you what you were after, this is very real when singing pop, you risk sounding boring as hell otherwise.

Not trying to sell you that me or any other teacher could train you to be as good as him, or that everyone could be a super star. Just saying that technique are just the tools for you to express yourself, the content that will be delivered is the real game. This can be aquired too, but an exclusive focus on the mechanics and the high Bs, Cs, A#s and so forth can prevent it from happening.

Good studies!

[Felipe Carvalho]

Sure thing, shoyoninja@gmail.com

Its hard to precise this stuff indeed, I love this, for example:

 

[Robert Lunte]

Please remember to use the pop up menu on the bottom right corner to embed youtube videos guys, not links. We don't want to "bounce" people out of the site. And its just more fun to view an embedded video then bounce out to YouTube anyways.

[ronws]

Mike Farris, no doubt about it, he has got it. Good stuff

I am off topic but way cool avatar. I know about that band, just a little bit.

[ronws]

Alright guys, 

I have a couple of concerts I am going to over next few weeks with my step son.  Cannibal Corpse and Symphony X.  Any insights into the George Corpse Grinder vocal technique?

I think it is called the extended vocal growl.  He chose CC and i chose SX..

 

I like both and I am almost as old as you are. I will be 52 next March. "Old enough to know better, still too young to care."

Anyway, I better understand now what you are getting at. And you will sing as well as those you admire, such as Cowan and others. And the improvement can happen at any time. Such as our fellow MDEW. I have been singing for decades and being here has made me a better singer than I ever was before. So, you are in the right place, a good place.

And Felipe has given outstanding replies.

[KillerKu]

I like both and I am almost as old as you are. I will be 52 next March. "Old enough to know better, still too young to care."

Anyway, I better understand now what you are getting at. And you will sing as well as those you admire, such as Cowan and others. And the improvement can happen at any time. Such as our fellow MDEW. I have been singing for decades and being here has made me a better singer than I ever was before. So, you are in the right place, a good place.

And Felipe has given outstanding replies.

This place is insidious. I think I've improve almost through osmosis a lot more than specifics I could directly point out. Something you heard 5 years ago, might 'click' tomorrow. 

I like the struggle, chaos, and imperfections of singing without complete control over my voice. Some singers sound like they are in a wrestling match with their voice than casually delivering commands. I can love that sound.

I've still got time to enjoy singing imperfectly and wrestling with it, but on average I'd be less 'polished' than if I had not arrived, and I've definitely gained an upper hand. There's no doubt.

[ronws]

http://www.jvoice.org/article/S0892-1997(07)00189-0/fulltext

The above link has some great longitudinal, scientific (anatomical studies of the voice).  I have enjoyed the link and it has enlightened me to what is physically going on with the vocal apparatus and how it works.  It also explains the differences in vocal cord lengths and voice classifications.  I read on another site that vocal fold length can range from 12 mm -24mm with  bass voices having the longest vocal folds.  I not starting another debate, just sharing some info.

I can't remember now if it was this study or another one that I read that said similar things. There are structural differences for some classical voice types. A true basso profundo does have structural differences from a natural tenor leggiero, for example. Which does NOT mean that a basso cannot sing a note in the tenor range. He certainly can. But I think the same cannot be said for the reverse. A light tenor singing a true basso profundo role? I just can't imagine it.

[Edhie]

Hi guys,

First of all, nice to meet you, everyone. This is my first post here, but I've been reading the forum quite a bit and find it very useful.

At the beginning of this thread, someone mentioned that one of the most important things to improve as a singer was psychology. That sounds very true.

My question is: do you have any tips for building confidence? 

My issues are pretty typical I think, I've always sung at every possible casual occasion, like in the shower, at karaokes, on Singstar, randomly at home or when I hear a tune I like somewhere. Some people told me "you sing well" (my pitch is ok so there's that), some others were more along the lines of "shut up", "omg you're loud" or polite silence. Of course the reactions could be attributed both to a poor technique and to a poor choice of circumstances. Nonetheless it kept slowly grinding at my confidence until I decided I should either try to do it properly or stop altogether.

I began training about two years ago, but only started dedicating serious time to it about 8 months ago. Since then my technique, breath and muscles have all improved - I realise I still have a long way to go but I am happy that some progress is being made. Also because I stopped singing anywhere and everywhere I have stopped getting on people's nerves, and I am starting to get more compliments, including from reasonably good musicians. The vocal coaches I've seen tell me I'm ok, need more technique, support and control, but they seem to think there's something to work with.

But I just cannot get past this feeling that somehow I am not/will never be good enough. And that is really causing me issues with the technical applications of singing. I will train at home, but because I feel self-conscious about being heard by the neighbours my throat gets all constricted and I hurt myself (happened yesterday. Now I am sitting on my hands and silently raging at my stupidity while my throat throbs in protest.) I am trying to record myself when I'm singing, some little things I am even proud of, but most of the time I feel like I am coming short of my expectations and I fall into a vicious cycle of feeling bad about my singing -> putting pressure on myself to sing better -> singing worse than usual -> feeling bad, etc. The singing style I am into (rock/metal/musical) makes me want to belt sometimes, but because I am afraid of being loud, I end up doing it on a constricted throat and again, hurt myself.

I realise that I am my own worst enemy, but I just don't know how to go about it, and I am getting more and more frustrated at myself. I am also starting to be really scared that all this tension will do permanent damage to my voice before I even have the chance of learning how to use it properly. Essentially, as of late I have been in a state of quasi terror when it comes to opening my mouth and singing.

I am sure that other people here had similar issues. I would really love to hear how you managed to overcome them... Thank you in advance!