NEW TMV POLL! TAKE THIS POLL AND LETS SEE WHAT MEMBERS THINK?

[Robert Lunte]

Participate in this new TMV Poll... !

[Douglas]

CVT holds that there are there are four different modes that you can sing in that they have developed in some detail, and that you can sing continuously from higher to lower pitch within a mode without encountering a break. Instead the breaks occur when one transitions between modes. Most of these modes are not limited in terms of their highest and lowest pitch, though the full metallic mode called "overdrive" is.

Because CVT doesn't recognize a particular brake that must be negotiated in order to sing from the low part of the voice to the high part of the voice, they do not have a concept that is quite the same as the passagio.

So no passagio, but there are brakes still that require some navigating.

In CVT terms, Singing Success teaches singing in overdrive-> curbing-> metal like neutral, as one goes from lower to higher pitch, so two breaks are encountered.

My impression is that (again in CVT terms) the Four Pillars of Singing teaches singers to go from Overdrive to Metal Like Neutral as one assends in pitch, and so a break is encountered.

CVT would predict breaks to be encountered in both of these instances and for both male and female opera singers. The reason it is not the same as the passagio is that CVT would hold that you could avoid the breaks by staying in the center of a mode. For singers that stay in the modes that they have learned in SS or the four pillars the passagio may seem very real, but it is artifact of the limted modes that are used. In the same way that the earth could appear flat until you realized you could sail around it. So in a way this is the earth is flat vs the earth is a sphere argument. Btw, CVT doesn't say you should stay in the center of the modes and not transition, only that you could. The choice is upto the individual singer.

I hope this is clear and helps some.

Doug

[eggplantbren]

Hi Douglas,

How does CVT explain why so many untrained singers (and people who've had many lessons but still don't "get it", like me) have the SAME problems at around the same pitches? For men, going up to about E4 in overdrive is comfortable, then it isn't (way below the upper limit of C5), then people flip into neutral. And most people find that neutral is the only mode they can use in the high pitches.

Of course it's possible for this not to happen, but it is so common that methods need to talk about it, IMO.

Thinking about this, do you think people find neutral easiest in the high pitches because all vowels are allowed so it is easier to stay in the center of the mode?

[Martin H]

eggplantbren,

Can you please post a clip where you go to E4 in Overdrive? :)

[VideoHere]

boy oh boy..a physiological reality?

well, speaking in non-technical terms, i.m.h.o., some transition has got to take place to enable me to navigate from my lowest pitch to my highest...me personally. you could find that transition on your own perhaps, but i needed to be shown, and it didn't take long. a few skype lessons with rob and jaime helped me through it. once you have it, it's so ingrained as to not even realize it. with respect to all, it's not really that difficult to do.

[Jens]

"How does CVT explain why so many untrained singers (and people who've had many lessons but still don't "get it", like me) have the SAME problems at around the same pitches? For men, going up to about E4 in overdrive is comfortable, then it isn't (way below the upper limit of C5), then people flip into neutral. And most people find that neutral is the only mode they can use in the high pitches."

Because of the same reason as some people going to the gym will be able to pull more weights than others at the start, while on the other hand a trained bodybuilder would be able to lift alot more.

Singing high in a mode like overdrive takes alot more support and go for than what a beginner singer or singers who "dont" get it think.

I think such people(im one of those) are abit more scared of their voices.

Ive met many people who can scream almost all the way up to C5 in overdrive without any singinglessons. I think it's a matter of finding the right coordination who lets you get your "lower voice" up above the E4.

In my mind the passagio is created by going from one "coordination" to the other and doing this seamlessly. But you dont have to,(some do this natural others need to learn) you can continue with out doing that coordinationchange until much later.

I think the passagio as a "set" area in the voice is humanmade and not by nature.

My friend daniel a nonsinger but id rather call him a naturesinger, a real powerhouse and he just goes for it. He sings withpower and distortion without backing off right in the "passagio" and passes beyond without a "passagio" technique. He's not a tenor but a rather a baritone...

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/24890526/daniel_chest.wma

if the passagio was a physical and acoustical reality howcome some singers dont have to use it or obey its rules?

[VideoHere]

"How does CVT explain why so many untrained singers (and people who've had many lessons but still don't "get it", like me) have the SAME problems at around the same pitches? For men, going up to about E4 in overdrive is comfortable, then it isn't (way below the upper limit of C5), then people flip into neutral. And most people find that neutral is the only mode they can use in the high pitches."

Because of the same reason as some people going to the gym will be able to pull more weights than others at the start, while on the other hand a trained bodybuilder would be able to lift alot more.

Singing high in a mode like overdrive takes alot more support and go for than what a beginner singer or singers who "dont" get it think.

I think such people(im one of those) are abit more scared of their voices.

Ive met many people who can scream almost all the way up to C5 in overdrive without any singinglessons. I think it's a matter of finding the right coordination who lets you get your "lower voice" up above the E4.

In my mind the passagio is created by going from one "coordination" to the other and doing this seamlessly. But you dont have to,(some do this natural others need to learn) you can continue with out doing that coordinationchange until much later.

I think the passagio as a "set" area in the voice is humanmade and not by nature.

My friend daniel a nonsinger but id rather call him a naturesinger, a real powerhouse and he just goes for it. He sings withpower and distortion without backing off right in the "passagio" and passes beyond without a "passagio" technique. He's not a tenor but a rather a baritone...

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/24890526/daniel_chest.wma

if the passagio was a physical and acoustical reality howcome some singers dont have to use it or obey its rules?

jens, please explain what you mean by "scared of your voice." you don't seem at all scared to me buddy.

[Douglas]

<snip>

How does CVT explain why so many untrained singers (and people who've had many lessons but still don't "get it", like me) have the SAME problems at around the same pitches?

<snip>

Hi eggplantbren,

I don't think that, that is a stated part of the CVT model.

If we assume your assertion is correct, and many untrained singers do have trouble there, I think an explaination could be that novices would encounter the edge of a mode if they tried to learn by coping any one of many styles of singing. (this is just my own personal guess at it, not CVT)

For example, the way that Robert teaches people to sing rock, likely IS how many rock singers do it. They are negotiating a transition between modes. If you try to sing like they do, you will have to do it too. Does that make sense? (if not tell me... I am trying though! )

Oh and by the way, though I am a fan of what CVI has done, I think the scientific approach to voice is to always question models and figure out what they are useful for and when they break down.

I think the CVT model is great but it doesn't explain everything, I think it is a pretty good model though, and it helped me sort out some of the things I was having problems with.

If you can find some places that it doesn't work so well, all the better, vocal science can progress. For example, I don't think they have fully developed their model to explain what happens in the very high part of the voice yet. But that doesn't mean that the current model isnt useful, it is, it has helped me a ton.

I hope this helps, please let me know if it doesn't.

Doug

[Douglas]

Hi Douglas,

<snip>

Thinking about this, do you think people find neutral easiest in the high pitches because all vowels are allowed so it is easier to stay in the center of the mode?

<snip>

Hi eggplantbren,

I really don't know for sure on this one.

Perhaps one of the many people on the forum who know more about CVT than I do can help?

Doug

[Jens]

"jens, please explain what you mean by "scared of your voice." you don't seem at all scared to me buddy."

Being scared can come in many forms, manythings can be deep down mental for instance somebody who told you to be quiet alot as a child. When your good in the fullmetallicmodes(sounds that sound like chestvoice and get screamyer the higher they go) right from the start, right from the bat it automaticly tells me it's a person who has never been afraid to make noise or being to loud.

Im not what one would call a scared singer at all i can scream as hell, but i dont put my life on the line on every scream and pull as much vocalweight as i possibly can. Ive stood in a room just next to a person who could sing all the way up to E5 in what he called "chestvoice" at start i was like "ok bring it on let me hear this" thinking he would do the usual rocktechnique bridging and be a crazy tenor doing it good.

When he climbed up to A4 still having the same ammount of chest as down low just screamyer i was thinking "soon hell bride, he's just a high voice" he continued no change at all in soundcolor but the voice just got louder and more scream entered his voice. At B4 he ventured from his choosed Oh vowel to more Ah and around C5ish to A contining up to E5.

That made me change my mind on alot of the things that are possible with the voice, and thats why im abit torn in this passagio debate. Im a passagio singer, ive built my voice around this and it's probably the best choice for me. But my mind has been clear in this issue since that day, some people can just thrust by the passagio without even noticing it's even there.

That "chest"pulling son of a bitch proved my original belifs wrong and i thank him for that though im abit envious by his ability.

[Sykotix]

I'm no expert, so it's hard to say, but judging from my own experiences, I think there is. Or at least there's an area of difficulty that I have in neutral without air between the G# below tenor high C and tenor high C itself.

I can go through this area with neutral with air, or curbing, quite easily.

I mean this could be a passagio, or maybe it's just a sign that I need to work on my twanging around that area.

But the fact that about 95% (pulled that statistic right out of my ass) of male singers have problems at the same area, makes it hard to believe that there isn't a passagio, but then that doesn't explain total freaks of nature like Jens' friend :P

[ronws]

have to,(some do this natural others need to learn) you can continue with out doing that coordinationchange until much later.

I think the passagio as a "set" area in the voice is humanmade and not by nature.

My friend daniel a nonsinger but id rather call him a naturesinger, a real powerhouse and he just goes for it. He sings withpower and distortion without backing off right in the "passagio" and passes beyond without a "passagio" technique. He's not a tenor but a rather a baritone...

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/24890526/daniel_chest.wma

if the passagio was a physical and acoustical reality howcome some singers dont have to use it or obey its rules?

I agree with you, Jens, that passagio is assauged by a coordination or configuration change. I also think your friend is tearing his voice apart, if that's him in the clip.

[ronws]

Douglas - I don't think 4 Pillars is limited. It accepts the existence of the passagio, Jen's friends aside, who may actually have passagio and just modify through it naturally. Anyway, bridging early, which is a 4 Pillars technique, is to deal with the problem of passagio before it arises. The other techniques that say passagio doesn't exist are doing essentially the same thing, bridging to head voice early and then saying "passagio doesn't exist." Which is fine for them. Just don't think 4 Pillars is somehow deficient or "quaint" because it acknowleges passagio. Passagio is real, otherwise none of the singing systems would have the exercises that they do. We could all just holler up to C5 or whatever.

I think there are some tenors who don't have so much an upper passagio but they will have a lower passagio and you don't hear from them as often. And they can seamlessy ascend from middle C to C5 without an apparent break. So, let's hear them do even just a G or F# below middle C, with authority and conviction.

[Douglas]

Douglas - I don't think 4 Pillars is limited. It accepts the existence of the passagio, Jen's friends aside, who may actually have passagio and just modify through it naturally. Anyway, bridging early, which is a 4 Pillars technique, is to deal with the problem of passagio before it arises. The other techniques that say passagio doesn't exist are doing essentially the same thing, bridging to head voice early and then saying "passagio doesn't exist." Which is fine for them. Just don't think 4 Pillars is somehow deficient or "quaint" because it acknowleges passagio. Passagio is real, otherwise none of the singing systems would have the exercises that they do. We could all just holler up to C5 or whatever.

I think there are some tenors who don't have so much an upper passagio but they will have a lower passagio and you don't hear from them as often. And they can seamlessy ascend from middle C to C5 without an apparent break. So, let's hear them do even just a G or F# below middle C, with authority and conviction.

Hi Ronws,

As I have said in other threads, I think this is mostly an argument about terms. The big difference between CVT and models that believe in the "passagio" is that CVT says there are modes that you could stay in if you wanted and not run into a break as you assend in pitch. Not that you should do this. In fact it is acknowledged to be desirable to be able to change modes.

It is quite possible to sing in neutral from very low to very high without a break, but no, it will not sound like overdive. If you want to go from high neutral to low overdrive, you have to change modes. We are all talking about the same voice, just using diffferent terms. There are some ways to avoid hitting the passagio but they may not be what you would like to be singing so there is still a need to learn to cross from one mode to another.

Doug

[Jens]

"I also think your friend is tearing his voice apart, if that's him in the clip."

He says he feels fine and he never gets hoarse and can continue do this the next day.

Listen to jorn lande he uses a similar push in his voice, and he goes even higher than the tenor high C

[Steven Fraser]

Jens, Martin H, Douglas, all:

To participate in this discussion, I need to ask 2 question:

If an operatic baritone sings the Bb next to middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

If that same baritone sings the Bb above middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

Here is an example of what I have in mind. Sorry that this thread does not seem to support text special effects and embeddings beyond the simple link.

The aria he is singing is in Bb, so there are multiple instances of the lower Bb, and one of the upper, with plenty of other notes between them.

Interested in your responses.

[VideoHere]

Jens, Martin H, Douglas, all:

To participate in this discussion, I need to ask 2 question:

If an operatic baritone sings the Bb next to middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

If that same baritone sings the Bb above middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

Here is an example of what I have in mind. Sorry that this thread does not seem to support text special effects and embeddings beyond the simple link.

The aria he is singing is in Bb, so there are multiple instances of the lower Bb, and one of the upper, with plenty of other notes between them.

Interested in your responses.

steve, i'm just a non-cvt singer trying to learn from you and others, but when i attempt to sing that note a sharp myself (not saying anywhere near that level of proficiency) but i can do it, i feel i have to make an "adjustment" both in the vowel (modify it) and where that tone gets placed (stable larynx, high soft palette). i can't see how you can hit that note without some kind of vowel modification. i would

say that is a very well supported head voice note.

please feel free to correct me.

[Mr Bounce]

Just speaking from my experience as a human being, "it" exists. I think if you walked around the streets and asked 100 people to siren upwards, maybe 75% would reach a point where they flip into falsetto and most of those who didn't would be either women or very effeminate men

There is a point where some change goes on with the voice apparatus, that most people cannot do. Singers train their understanding of their own voice. I think it is ridiculous to say that there is no "passagio" when almost any non-singer friend you know would break in the same spot (relative to their voice) when singing karaoke for example.

However, I do think that this break may be a result of a trained habit rather than some physiological function. Generally, I have found that those who regularly speak expressively, with a wide pitch variation, find that singing comes more naturally. Perhaps because they don't have that ingrained habit that you MUST speak like "this" and anything that comes out of your mouth must be "proper," rather than natural. Hmm.

[Robert Lunte]

Douglas - I don't think 4 Pillars is limited. It accepts the existence of the passagio, Jen's friends aside, who may actually have passagio and just modify through it naturally. Anyway, bridging early, which is a 4 Pillars technique, is to deal with the problem of passagio before it arises. The other techniques that say passagio doesn't exist are doing essentially the same thing, bridging to head voice early and then saying "passagio doesn't exist." Which is fine for them. Just don't think 4 Pillars is somehow deficient or "quaint" because it acknowleges passagio. Passagio is real, otherwise none of the singing systems would have the exercises that they do. We could all just holler up to C5 or whatever.

I think there are some tenors who don't have so much an upper passagio but they will have a lower passagio and you don't hear from them as often. And they can seamlessy ascend from middle C to C5 without an apparent break. So, let's hear them do even just a G or F# below middle C, with authority and conviction.

I really like this explanation. Thanks Ron, stated better than I could have...

[jonpall]

I agree with Mr Bounce. Ronws, seeing how much you praise the 4 Pillars and correct people's assumptions on it, don't you think it's time you purchased it? lol. Seriously, I think you'd really like it and you'd be able to explain the material within it even better. And there's a good chance that your skill would sky rocket. I know it's partly an issue of income, like with many others here and I really hope this new job opportunity of yours will work out and everything will start to go better for you and your wife. Cheers.

[John Henny]

Jens, Martin H, Douglas, all:

To participate in this discussion, I need to ask 2 question:

If an operatic baritone sings the Bb next to middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

If that same baritone sings the Bb above middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

Here is an example of what I have in mind. Sorry that this thread does not seem to support text special effects and embeddings beyond the simple link.

The aria he is singing is in Bb, so there are multiple instances of the lower Bb, and one of the upper, with plenty of other notes between them.

Interested in your responses.

I am certainly no expert on Voce Vista and spectrum analysis, however, it would appear there are two distinct resonance strategies going on between Bb3 and Bb4. Milnes is using a strong first formant tuned to the second harmonic approach on Bb3 (there is also a strong singer's formant cluster, from what I can tell). He changes this strategy to the second formant on the 3rd harmonic on Bb4, since F1/H2 is no longer acoustically viable for him. This change of the formant to harmonic relationship is a change of register. There is a passaggio between the two registration events.

[Snorth]

Jens, Martin H, Douglas, all:

To participate in this discussion, I need to ask 2 question:

If an operatic baritone sings the Bb next to middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

If that same baritone sings the Bb above middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

Here is an example of what I have in mind. Sorry that this thread does not seem to support text special effects and embeddings beyond the simple link.

The aria he is singing is in Bb, so there are multiple instances of the lower Bb, and one of the upper, with plenty of other notes between them.

Interested in your responses.

The low Bb is in overdrive and the high Bb is in curbing.(Damn it has incredible resonance!)

Overdrive is just not possible on that vowel at Bb, one would have to go with an OH as in "Go" instead.

[Martin H]

Jens, Martin H, Douglas, all:

To participate in this discussion, I need to ask 2 question:

If an operatic baritone sings the Bb next to middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

If that same baritone sings the Bb above middle C full voice, with singer's formant, what mode is he in?

Here is an example of what I have in mind. Sorry that this thread does not seem to support text special effects and embeddings beyond the simple link.

The aria he is singing is in Bb, so there are multiple instances of the lower Bb, and one of the upper, with plenty of other notes between them.

Interested in your responses.

The Bb3 and Bb4 can be sung in many ways....so every mode can be used

As Snorth already wrote. In this case, the singer uses Overdrive on the lower Bb3 and Curbing (Or maybe Edge as my second guess) on the higher Bb4.

And as John Henny mentioned, the lower Bb3 is different from the higher Bb4, so a "bridge" (mode-switch) have taken place....and this is also what Snorth (and I) hear....a change from Overdrive > Curbing (or Edge). :)

[Robert Lunte]

The Bb3 and Bb4 can be sung in many ways....so every mode can be used

As Snorth already wrote. In this case, the singer uses Overdrive on the lower Bb3 and Curbing (Or maybe Edge as my second guess) on the higher Bb4.

And as John Henny mentioned, the lower Bb3 is different from the higher Bb4, so a "bridge" (mode-switch) have taken place....and this is also what Snorth (and I) hear....a change from Overdrive > Curbing (or Edge).

... I just got off a skype video meeting with "Sir" Fraser and we discussed this file... Martin, would you then say that the curbing you refer to has a lower laryngeal position as this more Classical sound demonstrates? That would be confusing, because Im assuming that your average B4 would not have such a lowered position?

I sang the B4 with Steve and it sounded pretty killer, but he noted that the difference would be my larynx was a bit more higher, which is what we would expect as we train a more contemporary sound at TVS...

[Martin H]

. Martin, would you then say that the curbing you refer to has a lower laryngeal position as this more Classical sound demonstrates? That would be confusing, because Im assuming that your average B4 would not have such a lowered position?

I sang the B4 with Steve and it sounded pretty killer, but he noted that the difference would be my larynx was a bit more higher, which is what we would expect as we train a more contemporary sound at TVS...

I would say, in this case, that the Curbing(Maybe Edge) has a darker sound-color ( this is independed of the mode though -- it can be bright/lighter as well, just like you probably experienced yourself on the high Bb4). But the darker color can also be achieved without lowering the larynx! To darken the sound you can also raise the soft palate, round your lips or compress the tounge. Actually the compressed tounge and rounded lips are widely used within the classical world! Ex. They call the compressed tounge "cucchiaio" in Italian.

In this example with Pavarotti, you can see the rounded lips and clearly the compressed tounge position. Look carefully at 2:46 - 2:56 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZCZ1tbLw6s

But of course you can also lower the larynx to darken the color. BUT only to a certain extend, otherwise you run the risk of loosing the high notes completely.

I would advice to start with a raised larynx. And if the other approaches to a darker sound color isn't enough, you can then carefully try to see how much you can lower the larynx. :)