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thanks very much folks, i'm very flattered....that was recorded from a karaoke contest i won about three months ago. i just sing from my soul and try to remember the techniques....

for those who had asked my age, i'm 57....i'm hoping i can continue to improve, grow and refine as i get older.

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what we have acheived

Ok my turn.

I work really hard on my voice control especially in my mix/high voice area. I ve got unstable vibrato.

I usually sing in my root language but the best sound in English I achieved here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-djpaL9HpY

I know it's not perfect, to be honest Elton John 10/10, me 7.25/10. Im 22.

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My latest achievement... Well, not an achievement, just a confirmation. I have been staying away from the very high part of my voice for more than a year, but yesterday I did a full check up in there and everything is still untouched, the same as it was before. I was afraid I'd lose range or technical skill up there by not practising those notes for so long, but no, they still outdo my chest voice.

Your Elton John cover is really good, devaitis, not only the quality of your voice, but also the quality of the recording. Sounds almost professional! Didn't you record the full song?

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thanks so much, i keep trying....

Well I actually started watching American Idol for the first time this year(because of Steven Tyler,) and even though these little suckers can run through 500 licks & trills and have 3+ octave ranges...I find it distracting and immature(to say the least.)

IMO...It takes great musicianship to sit in the pocket and let the song be the song.

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Well I actually started watching American Idol for the first time this year(because of Steven Tyler,) and even though these little suckers can run through 500 licks & trills and have 3+ octave ranges...I find it distracting and immature(to say the least.)

IMO...It takes great musicianship to sit in the pocket and let the song be the song.

I've watched it since the second season, and I agree. Too often the contestants put too much emphasis on the big runs and range while disregarding many other aspects. My biggest complaint with many of the American Idol singers is the lack of dynamics. Many of them bullhorn their way through everything they sing, and by the end of the show, you feel like you've heard the same singer ten times.

As you said, it takes musicianship to let the song be the song, and it simply doesn't happen very often on the show. The music tends to be merely a backing track for them to put on a technique clinic.

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IMO...It takes great musicianship to sit in the pocket and let the song be the song.

Amen to that.

And devaitis, your voice sounded fine. It's just a different weight than Elton John. That is, you are good, without sounding like him. And you have an obstacle that you overcome well in this song. That obstacle being language. I am american and most of the songs we deal with here are sung in english with an american accent, even if the singer is british or canadian, etc. Elton John sings with an american accent that makes him sound as if he is from one of the southern states in the USA. And that is hard to do. Your language and the way you learned to speak it (from family and friends) can either be a help or a hindrance to singing. In fact, I've heard some who come from southern or central american area who sing a bit through their nose, primarily because of how they learned to speak their language. Overcoming that can be as difficult as going against potty training.

Yet, other languages, such as castillian Spanish, mexican Spanish, and Italian, lend themselves well to singing because of how the spoken language is produced. For example, mexican Spanish, many of the consonants are soft and words do not end in a combination of consonants, as does German. In mexican Spanish, the b is a soft b, produced with the lips slightly parted and sounds similar to a v. Most anglos can't do this well and just use v. Anyway, in singing, the mexican b is easier to use because it is not a full labial stop and allows the note to continue. Also, in singing, it is wise to ride the vowel and save the consonant ending the word for the very last and let it subside quickly. The french phrase "raison d'etre" is pronounced (as far as I know) with the consonant sound being a cessation of phonation, rather than a hard "t" sound, when speaking. And it is applied the same in singing, such as in the song, "I Don't Believe in Love," by Queensryche. In keeping, I will often sing the next line the same way "My only hope is one day I'll forge..." The sonic effect is that I pronounced a "t" when I didn't.

Compare that to say the german word "ausgezeichnet." Sing that soft. I don't see how. In speaking, it would phonetically be (ows-geh-tseich-net.) The ch sound is an aspirant formed by partial closure of the tongue near the roof of the mouth. Regional dialect determines where this is. In southern Germany, it is closer to the front of the mouth with the tip of the tongue. In the north, it is in the back of the mouth with rearward part of the tongue (which is how I pronounce it.)

Anyway, you did well and congratulations.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Sometimes, one has to go back to basics. Even basics that I have studied but didn't apply or get the gist or see the need. And thanks to jonpall. Many times, even if he is not criticising the specific song I am singing, he is always harping on basics, which I often tune out, because it wasn't applying to the song in a thread. Then, he pointed out that I "slide" or crash the end of a note (a cessation of phonation that sounds like a drop in pitch and sometimes, is.) Anyway, inspired by others in the "Don't Stop Believing" threads, including the performances of members here and Chris Keller, coach on the Manning system, I took a stab at the song earlier today. And was botching it royally, trying to record just a scratch version of me and guitar, as someone else had done.

Fortunately, in a moment of clarity with all 3 of my brain cells working, (I know, it scared me, too) I realized that I was getting to excited and surmised that I was being stymied by a high larynx. Now, this also comes after reading some of "Rock singer's Survival Manual" by Mark Baxter. He's pretty much a drill sargeant a**hole. But then, I respond to that, having grown up around the military. Anyway, his picture and description of the larynx activity finally gelled in my mind. I don't agree with all he says, such as his supposition that falsetto is a register but that is a minor point, to me.

Anyway, the exercises, from systems such as Vendera's, like the "bullfrog" of simulating a yawn to lower the larynx are to give a sensitivity to it's position. By keep a stable and "relatively" low larynx, i.e., not letting it rise up into the jaw, requires your muscles to re-train very quickly to move the larynx from the back side, so to speak. See, the larynx has to move in order for you to even speak, let alone, change pitch. The ideal is that the front of it, the notch in the Adam's Apple, should remain in pretty much the same location above, say, the clavicles. Your jaw may drop which makes it seem like the larynx has risen but it has not. Anyway, this makes the "other end" of the larynx move to alter pitch with the folds. In so doing, the throat remains open which allows full and easy passage of air and note, as well as the "dark" effect of overtones. And it makes volume easier. And it makes distortion effects easier.

Jonpall didn't realize he wasn't getting basic enough with me. :D I needed to go more basic than scales and "hold" and whatever modes. I need the very beginning of structure. The position of the larynx. I have been concentrating on singing since 1988. That's 23 years. And I can still learn something new. That was old. Or maybe, I forgot, I don't know.

So, with the lowered larynx and a free and wide open throat, other tonal variations, such as brightness or distortion are easier to manage because there is no constriction. Twang, I now realize, is separate from larynx position. And distortion, even the elusive rattle, is easier. For it need not be heavy to sound heavy. In fact, you can only do the rattle effectively with a lowered larynx.

To the point, I have posted examples in jonpall's thread on "Don't Stop Believing" with the effect of lowered larynx. Not that I need to sound like Ronnie James Dio but I find his "sound" easier to approach from the lowered larynx.

So, my win for the day is learning a basic thing all over again and seeing that it made things easier.

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ew, accomplishments!! I've learned SOOO much about support from posts on this site....grateful for that :)

just had light bulb moments wrt the twang issue when reading recent posts on twang, as i couldn't figure out what it was, how it sounded, etc, until y'all said "Anastasia, Axel", and rows told me Geddy Lee too ;) hallelujah :) Heck my ear is picking up "twang" from Bob Jovi now, but i didn't "pick it up " immediately after reading the posts. And i figured out you guys didn't mean that these singers were using twang for each and every note...i tried imitating them using twang for every note, another 'ah ha" moment.

SO i've been obsessed with Linkin Parks "New Divide". Was trying to sing that in "full voice" I guess, thinking projection like an opera singer might use, and was blowing out my voice by repeat no. 3. Then read the twang posts :) Actually started liking what i heard when using twang where i thought i heard it, and after like 5 tries...(recording in the car with my 39 buck wal-mart digital recorder..)

"

then shifted resonance further back, ....changed "dIviiide" to davahhhde"....read a post on vowel modification, and had another 'ah ha" moment.... worked on the note change in "reeeuuuson", thinking down to up, (okay got that pretty consistently....my new mantra, keep tongue relaxed, pulled back gently, palette soft....over and over and over always no matter what...starting not to have to think about it so much, if i get out of kilter doing that it comes back on each breath....

been working a ton on allowing my larynx to rise (came along with the twang work!)...okay so i started with SLS and somewhere along the line thought my larynx had to be lowered always.....wow....

learned to trust the mic to do its job, (event though its crappy), better mic technique on "aaaaaahyes" ;) (iow pullback so as to not blow my ears out on playback...)

ew hey this is a great video, hadn't seen it, hope it comes through directly...

woo hoo wee hee!!!!! this izzzz fun ;) thanks all!!!!! :)

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Yes, he uses vowel modification. So, divide becomes de-vah-ee-d with the ee sound momentarily before the consonant d. Layne Staley would do this, too. Sing the open vowel that supports the note and change rapidly at the end. It is an illusion created by how the mind perceives and remembers a sound. In retrospect, you remember it as divide. And I notice he is singing clearer than I remembered. And realized that he wasn't screaming. It was a clean tone with a slight edge that beefed up through mixing because of an engineer.

Anyway, congrats for seeing that twang is not just a Texas accent. Or a way of describing barbecue sauce.

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ew ronws you are right, i got in a hurry on the "de-vah-ee-d" thing and didnt do a very good job of trying to spell it like one should sing it (sorry!), but i didnt realize he sang an ee right before the d..will have to go back and listen again, i might be doing it without realizing it too, or naaaat ;)

and this is so ironic, i've been trying to lose my tehxaaaaazzzzzzzz accent for so long....despise sappy super twangy country music, and i do apolize - dont want to hurt anyones feelings with that...but hey, i lived in afghanistian with my parents for 2.5 years as a pre-teen...we had 5 - 8 track tapes. No tv. Only VOA and BBC radio to listen to. and the occasional shipment of those huge VHS? tapes that the whole community came to see..saw Captains and Kings and Jaws like 27 times in a year i think? so, i kinda got an overdose of Merle Haggard, Johnny Cash, Tammy Wynette, and others whose names i forget at the moment, but think even heavier twang than the previous and you'll understand....

so now i'm trying to relearn twang. its really quite amusing. I'm sure it'll be a metter of time before i start speaking with twang again, i can already feel it trying to creep into my thoughts, aggaHHHHHHH!!! :)

heehee :)

twang sounds like a great name for a BBQ sauce ronws. I'm gettin' hungry!!!

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Your jaw may drop which makes it seem like the larynx has risen but it has not. Anyway, this makes the "other end" of the larynx move to alter pitch with the folds. In so doing, the throat remains open which allows full and easy passage of air and note, as well as the "dark" effect of overtones. And it makes volume easier. And it makes distortion effects easier.

So, with the lowered larynx and a free and wide open throat, other tonal variations, such as brightness or distortion are easier to manage because there is no constriction. Twang, I now realize, is separate from larynx position. And distortion, even the elusive rattle, is easier. For it need not be heavy to sound heavy. In fact, you can only do the rattle effectively with a lowered larynx.

So, my win for the day is learning a basic thing all over again and seeing that it made things easier.

ron, you got it my friend..when you do those gugs and gugs you'll also develop the muscles that control the larynx.

that yawn configuration is analgous to having a "c-clamp" in your mouth ( i know you'd relate to that...lol) and really helps open you up.

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thanks very much folks, i'm very flattered....that was recorded from a karaoke contest i won about three months ago. i just sing from my soul and try to remember the techniques....

for those who had asked my age, i'm 57....i'm hoping i can continue to improve, grow and refine as i get older.

Bob, Was that the song you won with? It was AWESOME!!!

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ron, you got it my friend..when you do those gugs and gugs you'll also develop the muscles that control the larynx.

that yawn configuration is analgous to having a "c-clamp" in your mouth ( i know you'd relate to that...lol) and really helps open you up.

Thanks, bob. To me, the stable larynx thing was even more basic than gugs. It's like learning how to walk, again. Sometimes, and I think you have expressed this before, it's like starting over. Yet, with past experience, it moves along quickly. However, I have not been recording this week. Just concentrating on the larynx thing in both vocalising and singing songs. For it is one thing to practice it on open vowels in scales, or, my favorite, tri-tones. It's another thing to coordinate it within singing a song.

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and this is so ironic, i've been trying to lose my tehxaaaaazzzzzzzz accent for so long....despise sappy super twangy country music, and i do apolize

twang sounds like a great name for a BBQ sauce ronws. I'm gettin' hungry!!!

Barbecue sauce that has lemon in it or a lot of vinegar is described as twangy, at least amongst the people I know.

As for Texas influence, it isn't all bad. you should hear my version of "Whiskey in the Jar" with the guitar having a bit of Texas Swing to it. I based it on the original recording by Luke Kelly and the Dubliners, as opposed to the Thin Lizzy and Metallica versions.

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  • 3 months later...

Alright guys, I'm going to throw this up here and take it down in a little while (we're on a little tour and my band mates hate it when I post quick cuts), but I just wanted to share a little vocal I did that I was kind of proud of. As some of you know, I'm not a vocal technician by any means... sort of a one trick pony, you might say... but I think I'm a civilized songwriter and this isn't too bad for only one take!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS1w9P-0Wwk

nice job raph! smooth..and blusey..bob

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Outstanding, Raphael. I totally love the Willie Nelson style guitar solo. And your voice has so many layers to it and it sounded like it was all by feel. Some Aaron Neville, some Robert Earl Keen, some Kenny Wayne Shepherd, all mixed with a bit of cayenne, for that cajun feel. (Apologies for the reference. Cajun is an influence of southern Louisiana, USA. And yeah, I can make that comparison. My brother-in-law, lives near Baton Rouge. Plus, I likes me some zydeco, now and then.)

Bravo, Raphael.

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Per Lilli Lehmann and other giants of the vocal teaching world. half of singer training is learning to hear.

Brother of another mother, you have "the" voice. And a band. Get those gigs and do your thing. All this other stuff is good and we can always work on things that please us. But you are "there." Stay there and keep singing.

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Alright guys, I'm going to throw this up here and take it down in a little while (we're on a little tour and my band mates hate it when I post quick cuts), but I just wanted to share a little vocal I did that I was kind of proud of. As some of you know, I'm not a vocal technician by any means... sort of a one trick pony, you might say... but I think I'm a civilized songwriter and this isn't too bad for only one take!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS1w9P-0Wwk

Killer tone man. Real authenticity in your voice

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Bob - you're a man of few words, so let me respond in kind... you made my night!

lol!!! raph, i don't want to swell your head too much....lol!!! also, the more i write, the worse my spelling gets....lol!!!

no, that was really nicely done!

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that you did something right. And there will always be people who think they "have to take you down a notch." Mainly, from their own diseased psyche. So, enjoy your triumphs while you can. It's called operant conditioning, from Skinner's behaviorism. All organism learn by operant condition. In a nutshell, an organism does what works. A reward behavior gets repeated. A punished behavior decreases or extinguishes. And that is a cold, hard fact. And that is why I will more likely praise someone for what they did right than constantly browbeat them for what they did wrong. I have used that principle and seen it in action. It's not just me making crap up.

Enjoy your moment in the sun, Raphael.

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