RockNSoulLover

No joke, I wanted to try to cover this Sarah's way in fasletto! I prefer her version.

You:

Pretty girl. Pretty voice. I have to say, I kind of miss that mysterious reverb effect. Would you consider adding it as an alternative version?

No, I am an electrician by trade, operations manager, by occupation, for a contractor that specializes in electrical work for swimming pools and outdoor kitchens and arbors, though my career experience has been in residential, commercial (offices, schools, stores,) and industrial (repairs and change orders in hazardous factory locations like paint factories and breweries. Those are considered class I, division I (flammable vapor in open air contact.)) Thanks to my step-grandfather, I started studying electrical theory and electronics in 1975. But I didn't start doing electrical work until 1983. These days, I have a Texas State Master Electrician license, the "biggest" one they issue. You have to have one to get a state contractor license. At my company, one of the owners is also a master electrician and it's his license that is legally "attached" to the contractor's license.

As operations manager, I am responsible for every detail. I mean, every detail. Though only things I don't regularly do is invoicing and payroll, though I have had to once or twice. Maintaining stock, ordering and receiving. Scheduling work. Designing systems. Answering technical questions, NEC code questions, maintaining company registration in the various cities, administering continuing ed for the state license, logistical support for the crews in the field when it turns out they need something that was not anticipated, maintaining the security of the office and shop and sensitive documents, pursuing slow paying clients. They call me one time to get something scheduled and I do it. This is then followed by my pursuing them for a month with emails and phone calls to simply get paid for work we have already done. Sometimes, I have to leave the office to pick up the check.

I am responsible for the preventive maintenance schedule of our fleet of trucks. We do our own oil and filter changes, brake pads.

I am responsible in some cities for requesting inspections which must happen in a timely manner because the builder has other trades scheduled after us, pending inspections. One day of slipping up can cost them a week. And we are talking about projects who's total value approaches $100k.

Often, on the way home, I am dealing with more business calls on my company cellphone, making notes and then sending an email to my work email, once I get home, copying to one of the owners with whom I do the most work, as it will affect the schedule and needs to know the updates.

And he does special projects, such as the fountain for the new mirror at ATT Stadium (formerly Cowboys Stadium.) And, of course, providing logistical support for special projects like that, which are always like a burning fire.

Receiving and scheduling service calls and quoting prices and providing estimates. Drawing electrical diagrams for arbor structures as required by some cities in their plan review and approval process for some of our builders.

Seeing that the office has it's supplies, such as printer ink for for different printers. Bathroom tissue, paper towels, whatever an office needs.

Then a builder starts using a new piece of equipment, such as the Hayward Ecostar pump, which requires a special connection of communication cable. So I have to research that and present it in a color coded format for the installation crews. Or an Aqua Comfort heater/chiller and I need to know what the voltage and current requirements are so that the crews have the right size wire and circuit breaker.

What cities are following which edition of the NEC (not all cities are following the 2011. And a new one, the 2014, is out.

Coordinating with crews in the field over the phone for information that builders had failed to give and we need to know now. The crews speak mostly spanish, so I am translating across a language barrier with my tex-mex lingo. At least one problem on each job for each of three crews and one service tech, averaging two to three jobs for each crew, each day. Every day.

So, sometimes, given a free moment, I can wonder around the shop and sing something. And the one owner I often work with, he has his ipod station going all the time and we like to recite lyrics ala comedian Steve Allen.

Though, I kid you not, out of the clear blue with no thought before hand, we both piped up with "Click, Click, Boom!" from Saliva.

Scary ....

Nice :-). Electricity fascinated me as a child (yeah, it didn't get TOO dangerous ), surprised I didn't do something with it. That sounds like a lot! Amazing to go to that from homelessness. I did sciencecy stuff, but I always wanted to be a writer. I don't know how that happened.

Is everything easier from 1975 with things like CAD and general computing?

tex-mex lol. I only know a bit of castillian, and I can't keep up if they speak fast.

Oh, wow, sorry to hear rowns. Congradulations on the job. Again, Im sorry that came off rude. I just thought I was perhaps harming my voice.

Thank you, yes, I use that. Is your job related to music? Or did you diverge?

Nice speaking with you.

My name is Sean by the way :-)

Okay, Rock, as I have said before, I am not an expert in singing. And I don't describe or define myself as a teacher of singing and because I don't, my opinion can only mean zero. I apologize for my ignorant statements.

Oh no, Im sorry if it came off that way. It's just me being critical of myself. I appreciated your comments, as always :D

I am willing to think and say that how we speak and how we sing are two different things. I've gone back and forth between worrying about how I speak and not worrying about and I gravitate to the latter. As long as you are doing what is right when you sing.

Anyway, listening to your sample, I would say helden tenor. A person cast as a helden tenor is expected to be strong and heroic from C3 to C5 and you have that. While a helden could sing some notes outside of those two octaves, they are simply not as important as a solid and unified sound within those end points.

For example, in my redneck opinion, you have the right voice for range and tone for "Nessun Dorma." I would likely not do it right, though I have the range that can carry it. Because my voice is not so "helden." And some would say, "well, Ron, you could train to be helden, if that is what you want." Fair enough, and I could say the same to you, Rock. But you are already getting that tone, even with this sample.

It also depends on what your professional goal is. If you want to be an opera singer, you have to study with a coach, regardless of how good you are. It is the way of the opera world. In 1976, the Philadelphia Eagles held open try-outs for people not trained in college or having a lot of bona fides in football. In walks Vincent Papale. Mark Wahlberg stars as him in the movie, "The Invincible." He had a 3 year career full of injuries because he was already an old man of 30 when he joined.

They don't do that for opera. Which should not stop you. For you could local theater and musicals. In smaller towns that don't attract big opera names, you could shine. Then, again, so could I, which may not be saying a whole lot.

What I have also noticed is that training for something like opera or classical art songs may also change your fach or description. It can also change, depending on the music. Vocal fach is more often about the role being cast than the actual singer, though the fach of the singer is described what range they can most comfortably carry for an evening performance for several nights a week, for several weeks or a year.

For example, I would most likely be cast as some kind of tenor in a show because that is where the strength and endurance of my voice is. My lowest notes are really soft and low in volume, not suitable for carrying across the footlights of a stage with acoustical accompaniment. My voice is centered kind of high and light.

And, like you, I have a soft speaking voice even though I can sing with considerable volume.

What makes you an opera singer? Depends on whom you ask and what day of the week. That sounds cheeky but it's true. But if that is what you want to do, then do it and let no one stop you.

I was thinking Heldentenor, but their roles tend to require huge breath support, which I've only recently got access to... somewhat. I had bad asthma (to the point where my allergist told me that I cannot sing anything until I got it under control). In comes symbicort , and I can now get up to Cs and such.

Interesting, Im not too far off, Im 27 (ugh as 30 approaches...)

I'm not sure if it's healthy. I've been told it sounds tense by those with better musical ears (no offence to you; some people actually just dedicate their lives to voice). For example Felipe above (once I clicked his link) is an actual vocal coach, who , interestingly enough has a section on "classification"

I can get away with most of this in pop. But I notice a lot of big/showy pop vocalists lose their voices much more quickly.

I'm a big fan of Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, Stevie Wonder, Robert Plant, etc. All "big voiced" people. But they all seemed to lose their gifts rather quickly, even though they could sound great to most people.

Stevie didn't largely because he invested in operatic training once he noticed he was getting sore a bit after nightly singing, and he has a much higher sitting voice than I do.

Mariah, I loved her range. I liked being able to sing low then high. Even now, I get asked to be a "fill in" for whatver is missing. If a group needs a tenor, I sing that, if they need a bass, I sing that.

I sing as a hobby, really. I'm far too shy to really want to do it otherwise. I'm a scientist as a living.

Im hearing a young soprano, bassosoprano...

Resident troll? lol. I can hit a C6 in falsetto so maybe if they let me :P

Too tense to know.

I've gotten this before. I don't know how to fix it? It doesn't hurt at all and I can do it multiple times. Is there anything in particular you hear that I am doing wrong?

I'm really trying to imitate Pav/Bocelli/Diego Flores/Sherill without any training, so I'm not sure if that's wise to do considering those three are very, very trained.

I did have one vocal lesson, and the teacher just asked me "So tenor or baritone?".

Am I in danger of losing my voice like that even if it doesn't feel "bad" now? I'm 27 if that matters.

Another thing that is odd: I tend to lose my voice speaking quicker than I do with singing. After a night of singing, I'm still okay. If I "speak up" in a bar, my voice is hoarse the next day. Does my speaking voice sound unhealthy as well? What do you recommend I do first?

Would you describe any of my influences as tense?

They are:

Whitney Houston

Mariah Carey

Robert Plant

Steve Perry

Peabo Bryson

Pavorotti

Bocelli

Diego Flores

Barry White

Issac Hayes

Stevie Wonder

Celine Dion

Lara Fabian

Axl Rose

Christina Aguilera (okay, this is probably just silly to mention as she seems to be every vocal coach's "dont" )

My vocals are pretty much just a combination of trying to imitate all of these people at some point in my life (of course, an octave lower or so for the females).

I'm making a program to test for my resonance peaks; I'm not sure if that will help.

If it helps, it seems I don't employ much effort until around E4. After that, I can feel my voice "switch" so to speak. I feel it more in my head. I just kept working in this direction until I could get up to the 5th octave without feeling it hurt. I'm trying to "mix" as they say.

I want to try singing classical and opera styles, but I have no training. In pop, it doesn't matter what your voice type is, but it seems central to classical. Can anyone help me determine if I should try tenor, baritone, or bass roles?

I go from my highest comfortable to my lowest and include my speaking voice (I am not sure if that matters):

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1wLU3VQZcr4

warning: my speaking voice is almost inaudible (I get told to "speak up sir" almost everywhere) but my singing voice isn't. I backed up about 7 ft from the mic and kept it at the same sensitivity so it is as close to "usable classically"

Thanks Rock. Yes, that is me in that pic and yes I am a big guy @ 6'6", 400 lbs (but losing! I'm down 25 lbs since Jan 1st). I've been told that I'm everything from a tenor to a high alto. I don't really know what I am.

And thanks Cat. I think I mixed the backing track too high and the mic i had at the time wasn't very compatible with my iPad. It was hard to get much gain on it. Also, I was moving away from the mic when the power notes came up because I was afraid of drowning everything out. I've learned not to do that since then, at least when recording.

Woah, you'd feel as if I were a midget. I'm 5'5" 130 Congrats on the loss; don't go overboard however, at 6'6" and your chest size, I'd imagine perhaps 300-350 as good for you? I'm not a Dr. however.

You're definitely some form a tenor.

Sometimes, people go by what notes you're hitting. This is, by my reading, largely incorrect. It depends on where your "tessitura" lies, or where you can really sing the longest without fatigue while keeping your beauty and ease of voice.

If you tried to sing an alto's material, say "Another Sad Love Song" by Toni Braxton, you'd probably find the end of it way to hard because she spends half the song belting a note or 2 higher than the highest there--over and over.

People can have a lot of range, too, which can throw some off. I'm a bass-baritone type, and I can hit some of the notes you're doing here, but if I attempted the whole song that high, I'd fatigue because it's in a tenors "tessitura"

Amazing voice and good luck w/ the weight loss!

I'm about to head to bed and so is my other so I sang it softly

I really like the song (sound of silence) , and can't find anyone to do it with, so I figured I'd try to do my own two part for it.

I might do it with music/full; it's just a rough draft.

Tell me if it's convincing enough:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1UE1GvZEos7

berniemcpeak,

For what it's worth, me being a newbie and all and not

having any formalized training either, but just being a lover of music, it sounded awesome to my ears. Seriously. Well done. There were a few times when the music drowned you out a little, but you sound really good. My 2 cents. :cool:

yeah that's what I mean. That "carry over the music" ability with large instrumentation is largely resonance based. It's what allows a tiny woman to fill up an opera hall with her voice over a large orchestra w/o a microphone.

It's no big deal at all, as he sounds amazing, but he asked us to nitpick :cool:

this guy seems to be doing that "natural reverb" thing I was talking about. See how when he goes up there, it sounds like there's a lot going on even tho it's just one voice?

His voice is resonating more (basically some overtone frequencies come in that are far higher the the pitch he's singing). This is also what gives opera singers their ability to carry over orchestras.

I think it's called "squillo" in opera, and tends to occur around the 2500Hz-5000Hz range (hence a part of it sounds like there's a lot "covering" his voice) there.

He even lowers his jaw a lot more for the big notes, something you'll see operatic tenors doing.

He probably, like you, doesn't think about it either. You can probably do the same.

I can't; I just know what it is :rolleyes:

Hmm, that was good I think. I don't know if anyone will find much wrong with it. From the sound of it, you are using your mix/head voice. You probably just don't know you're doing it, but it's pretty much throughout the whole song.

A lot of talented people do this without ever being trained and don't know they're doing it, just do.

Think of mmm, Patti LaBelle. She sings all the way up to extremes that most trained singers would find unbearably difficult.

For me, for example, I had to learn to really work on high notes because my voice kept getting deeper on me for a bit (I'm 27 now, and it kept changing until just recently--:mad:) and I had a tendency to just yell them ( I still do to some extent).

Is that you in your pic? You look like an operatic tenor . large ribcage and prob tall? You probably just breathe properly and have the anatomy that grants you this without much work.

I would say, at most, I didn't hear as much resonance (that ringing quality)? It's kind of like a natural reverb of the voice.

Overall, I'd not say there's much issue. Count yourself lucky as someone who doesn't have to try much to get it :cool:

Man, you guys overthink things WAY too much. Just sing. If it sounds good, that's all that matters. It sounded good man, just sing it.

He does, but he has a point. In actuality, a lot of these singers are like this; we hear the finished product, which by the time they finish--IS easy to them, in much the same fashion that a body builder can lift things I'd get herniated over. It does take work.

Hmm,

Stiletto, I'm not a vocal coach, but a lot of what they do is "mixing," where they bridge the falsetto/headvoice with chest. From doing it myself (I could be doing it wrong not sure), it seems like once you get there, you have to remember to project.

Another thing is that when you do it, the sound will resonate more in your head. I find this is sort of a bad thing because you then hear yourself a lot louder than you think you are.

I've hit mixed notes, where I focused on hearing it myself, only to play it back and have it sound much less powerful than I thought.

Conversely, I've done them and projected (thinking OUT instead of UP) where they sound very strong on record but, at the time, they didn't sound as strong to me, possibly because the "heady" part of the mix is being more evenly distributed and projected.

Perry was a master of this. He could hit high notes with any intensity he wanted. "Wheel In the Sky" is one where it's one constant soft fluttery high note.

It sounds to me like you're mixing correctly--but possibly not projecting because you think it's as you hear it resonating in your head when you do it?

Nope. Not nearly that smart!

I have a LOT of fun. There is some risk in what you say but I guess that all depends on the person. I can guarantee you that the best singers in the world are quite anal when it comes to such things. Not that I am putting myself in that category mind you, just saying its not a bad trait to have when it comes to recording.

You raise a very valid point here. The answer is that most of those categories resolve themselves by focusing primarily on the 1st one. Almost all of the areas in which I consider this vocal lacking are directly related to a deficiency in that first category. So the things I listed are NOT all things I "think" about when I actually sing, only things I notice lacking in the vocal as a whole.

I never used the word hate? And isn't it amazing that in years past vocals like Perry's were accomplished without the aid of things like Autotune? The more someone works at their craft, the less they have to rely on such things. I am trying to work towards that end.

The goal would be to get to the point that singing this way is second nature. Alas, old habit die hard and I am no Perry! Indeed, my goal is to get to the point where I can open my mouth and it just falls out naturally.

Thankfully I can report that I have to "think" about it less and less every day now.

I have not recorded the entire song. I was just taking a pass at that one line to see how it would turn out as it's my first attempt at Journey stuff.

Nope. Not nearly that smart!

Don't say that about yourself! You seem analytical enough . Musicologist

Oh, sorry. By all means then. I thought you sounded good. I don't have perfect pitch, and I have no vocal training, so some of those things get a free pass from me I guess.

I thought you had a light timbre compared to Perry's. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "massive airflow".

I'm a big fan of Perry's voice, and given how perfect he sounds, I bet he is exactly like this. I've even heard of Maria Callas practicing for hours until others wanted to just go home <<

What does IDGI mean?

Oh. No not fishing. It's just what my ears tell me.

I break these things down into minute detail. Its a bit of a curse in some regards, but in other ways its a blessing if one is trying to record music on a regular basis.

I spend a lot of time in the studio and have been around quite a bit of mixing/recording/mastering. So I just hear stuff that perhaps others don't or are not trained to hear. I hope that does not sound condescending, its not meant to be. So I am speaking in terms of recording not how I might feel about singing this live had I done so.

And what my ears tell me is this particular vocal is about 70% of what it should be if I was looking to record this song for real. Any decent vocal producer would most likely say the same.

Now, keep in mind when I say that, I am speaking about a WHOLE host of things. Not just whether I hit the high note without strain. I am always looking for the following in every vocal that I would consider a "keeper":

1. Massive air

2. In time

3. Tone/texture

4. In tune

5. Stress free

6. Passion

All of those things combined make a great vocal. If I was grading on a scale of 1-10 each one of those categories would get different marks on the sample I posted. Some higher than others of course.

The part that is closest to being a "10" in all those categories and sits "right" to my ears is the one highlighted.

"Only so many tears you can cry, till the heartache is over, now you can say, YOUR LOVE WILL NEVER DIE..whoa whoa whoa."

My two cents.....

Thanks for the kind words by the way!

Oh you sound like me. Are you a scientist of some sort?

I have a habit of doing this, too. Getting so technical that it isn't fun and probably risks sounding less and less real.

1. Massive air

2. In time

3. Tone/texture

4. In tune

5. Stress free

6. Passion

How can you do all that while thinking this much?

A producer would hate this? Producers spend hours in autotune, even for classical musicians.

You sound like me in my head--it's so analytical that it's too much.

Just my 2 cents. Also I'd have to hear the whole thing?

So, I thought last night I would take a crack at the high point of the song (to me anyways) - the iconic "wail" in the bridge. I would not keep these takes for a final recording as I hear lots of little things that drive me batty and I don't have time to re-sing it plus really get into the deep mixing/timing and mastering issues that would help this sound a lot more polished.

But it was fun to mess around with! I am recording a lot of original music at the moment, but its always a nice break to sing someone elses material.

Steve still continues to amaze me whenever I listen to him........... I'm thinking if I get time I will record the whole song.

Dude are you fishing for compliments or just that self-critical?>

You slid right up there, something I believe even Perry took operatic training to achieve. There was no strain, no wavering of pitch (as far as I can tell), and your voice is incredibly like his (though maybe a more forward timbre).

IDGI?

Some of us try really hard just to get notes like that to even occur once a day :mad:

You have a good country timbre!!

I don't listen to much country, but my only criticism would be to maybe use some vibrato at the end of select phrases (light because this isn't R&. It'll help the talking delivery in the verses.

You don't do it in the chorus, so it might be a stylistic choice. If so, ignore my suggestion and continue.

Can you do "Breathe" by Faith Hill (it was originally supposed to be recorded for a man but it was in Faith's range so she took it)?

You are right sir, that is loud, but I enjoyed it. An off note here and there but otherwise pretty good. If I recommend anything, its to relax a bit more and try to work on working up to the note and not just jumping right on top, sort of speak.

Take a look at this video and see if it helps at all.

Thankx!.

Odd, I actually put an emphasis on hitting the note dead on as opposed to crescendoing (I think thats the word). Hmm, I'll prob redo this and:

1) Do it softer with a build (I don't think the hard belting goes to well acapella/acoustic?)

I don't want to sound exactly like Plant, but ty for the vid . I do want that falsetto/chest whatever thing he does in some songs (Imigrant Song etc).

I have always been told I have a powerful strong belt, so I like to use it--but not used to using it as high as Rob. New territory for me. Oddly enough, i wasn't able to do it 2 years ago or so. After 24, my voice changed more, and I was able to belt higher. Odd.

w00t some soul to balance out the rock on this forum :D

You have that perfect tone where all your words are clear. It was nice to hear those lows from your voice too given the natural height.

Would you do a Frank Sinatra or Michael Buble song? That's prob sound amazing.

Also, what are you using to produce this? Are you a professional with a studio? It sounds like something I'd hear on someone's actual studio album.

Share your compression settings/eq settings etc if yer doing this on your own, because it's hard for me in audacity :mad:

You know, everyone is jumping at pitch.

Here's the thing: until one sings enough in the song, unless they have a degree in music of have studied it semi-formally, they don't know that "this is the note I sing here".

So it comes down to natural "feeling" where they should be. I find a lot of the times, many people don't listen to the nuances in the song structure before recording. I am guilty of this at times. You just WANT to sing it.

Have you REALLY listened to the song? Becuase you say, "that's the way the song goes" im imagining that you don't hear it yet? If it helps, download her version, and lower it to the key you are in and hear her as if it were in that key. That may give you a good start.

I wish I could do that with my voice. Your ending is well handled, and it has the heaviness I thought was impossible without full belting it. How are you doing that? BTW, I really liked this, you flubbed the lyrics a bit . But it didn;t matter much.

My only criticism is to sing it a bit with more gusto at the end verse because the instrumentation gets punchier.

I'm still not over how easily you guys can handle the ending of this song. I feel like I'm at the vocal olympics at that point.:rolleyes:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s032F5Nosywj

I tied to this with a rock tinge. I get a lot of comments about how I keep my vocal delivery too restricted, so I'm playing with it now. This is a good belty song to practice with and it's not in the 5th octave for a millennia like a lot of Plant's work

I can get loud belting, a word of warning, though it doesn't hurt at all. I'm not sure if I'm doing it right but it feels fine? Any help is cool. This is in one take as well (trying to sound like I would live).

At this point my idolization of Plant's voice is as apparent as his bulge in nearly every other frame of his concerts in the late 70s :cool:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1iqxz2xGryx

One take. I used to sing this in college, and would always falsetto out the high notes at the end (never had the courage to try them unless drunk). It's a key that's a bit high but managemable....but

that

damn

ending

Could Robbie really sing this live like the recording back then? It's hard because it's right around the 5th octave at the end on, which doesn't come to easily to me (my talking voice is actually high bassish idgi ).

Anyway, it was fun to attempt, but I don't think I'd ever perform this one. I'm off time a bit cause I hadn't listened to the song a bit. At the end, there's a pause, cause I'm trying to keep the breath up for the phrases (I have asthma and no vocal training ),

Let me know what you guys think. What am I hitting those end notes in? Head voice? It doesn't feel like chest voice when I do it, but it doesn't feel like falsetto either, and I can (barely) control/vibrato it.

Should I avoid those notes altogether or are they part of my range that I should work on with a coach etc?

Btw, I do a lot of vocal "wahwah" stuff. I liked when Plant did it live, not sure if it goes well with my darker timbre tho.

I really love this song, but it's not very easy at all with all the dynamic switches, runs, and belts, but I thought of trying it as it fits well in my higher comfort range (a note and a 1/2 or so higher than this and it becomes effort) so I'm able to play with it a bit.

I tried to sing it in a classical delivery. Anyway, I'd love to have a fully workable cover of this song. This is the first half in one take. Let me know where I should improve. Thankx.

Oh something very odd that maybe some of your more vocal pedadogists can help me with: My belted notes (when I record them) are sometimes lower in volume (higher amplitude in Audacity) than my middle stuff but "seem" louder. Is this okay? I have no training, so I don't know if it's right but it feels easy and I can add vibrato?

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1YBCpCSrcMf