JonJon

haha. I figured this would be a little easy cover to knock off. I struggled hard in several spots. Still had some fun though

Cover https://clyp.it/lf0rbklk

Bare VX, no compression, no nothing https://clyp.it/o41ljujd

original song

Enjoy and let me know what you all think.

I think I will start making some of my own jam tracks to practice with.

This one is loosely based on the Heart song "Rage".

It hits the following notes in order E-F#-G#-A-A#-B-C.   It has a basic rock feel so obviously one can either hit the root, or hit the 7th, for instance sing D when the track is emphasizing E etc. Its probably also natural to sing the minor 3rd, for instance sing G while the track is on E etc

https://clyp.it/jsv1anfa

1 hour ago, DeityDog said:

okay i'll try to be more specific. the c5's sound like they have enough high but not enough low. Check this vid:

 

okay, that statement I can automatically agree with lol. Im BARELY getting the c5 at all....obviously im not going to be getting a CHESTY c5 yet lol

12 hours ago, DeityDog said:

 But it sounds to me as a soft speaking, lullaby singing kind of volume

thanks for the listen and feedback.

not sure what clip you are listening to though lol. This was all fairly loud IMO

9 minutes ago, ronws said:

Actually, according to Douglas Adams, as he wrote "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything is -

42.

Perhaps someone asked the wrong question and should have worried about 6 times 7.

And don't worry, Jon, others are rejecting my ideas in physics. So, it is evidently not a viable model or explanation, according to others who may be experts. I cannot be an expert because I am not a voice coach or teacher of singing.

 

yeah. As u said in another thread, there is a "magical" quality to singing and music in general. A lot of it simply will NOT reduce to words on paper. While many of the great singers we could name were in fact "trained", just as many if not more were not trained.

3 minutes ago, MDEW said:

The whole problem is that even if someone where to say Jon, Drop your jaw a little more, cut back the air and sing UH instead of Oh. It still may not work because your perception of UH may be different,

yeah, that would be a good start though!

23 minutes ago, MDEW said:

      And knowing this, why would any of the "So called Experts" respond in the first place?  You already have your answer. You gave it yourself. Vowel modification and you are not strong enough yet.

I didn't give that answer until on down in the thread and even then it's not an "informed" answer anyway....it's just what anyone would guess. I knew that much before I joined the forum.

I simply put out a singing effort and asked for feedback on my efforts to stretch up to the C5.

And simply saying "vowel modification" is about the same as not answering at all. It's like if someone says "Help me out, I can't throw a curveball, whats the secret?" and someone answers "physics."

But I suppose it is the same as in any other field, rather than ask the experts, it's better to just become one. True?

5 minutes ago, ronws said:

I can also help with something I learned from actor Jack Nicholson. Repeat after me:

"goosenfrabe."

Then sing a round of "I Feel Pretty" from "West Side Story."

There are times when you remind me of myself. A bit snippy. It can help to breathe, sit back, relax, do something fun and then get back to work.

And, oh yeah, Felipe has good points you should heed.

 

yeah, we had this same discussion a few months back.

As we speak, there is a thread 50 responses deep with intense debate over the difference between the terms "necessary twang" and "distinct twang." I understand it's very important to fiercely debate such things...especially if its a purely theoretical thing.

A person of any degree of intelligence can't help but notice and comment on such things.

Trust me, I wont lose any sleep over any of it. I practice so little it wouldnt matter if I had 12 guru's answering every question lol

1 hour ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Its kinda the same that I say on the blabbering on the technique section... I could say, keep it bright, find more space and go stronger as soon as you get to the higher sections (for example, on "believe" it changes already). The reason is that you are getting too narrow and a bit airy/almost breaking already.

Perhaps, you could use that video I did for middle voice to map down every single vowel that goes above F4 and make sure you are articulating it with a more or less appropriate position (and that will help with the "bright/space" part), but then again, its no magic recipe.

I also had an idea for some other weird stuff that may be helpful to "go strong" and I will throw on the technique section as soon as I find a way to explain it well.

 

But then again, these are band aids that might help a bit and give a idea of how it goes like but won't be really solving the problem at its core. To solve it with technique you would need to... train technique... train support slowly and piece by piece, adjust emission based on it, adjust the EE vowel, adjust all the other vowels using it, start working on the positions for passagio, adjust one vowel using the position, train going in and out of the covered position, train the EE vowel on the covered position, train passaggio on EE, adjust all other vowels for head voice using EE, train the passagio on them all, and so forth.

Usually, alone, this fails big time on the "support" part, and many of these aspects are done on parallel constantly refining everything.

 

How did you train support and attack of sounds so far? How did you assert the exercises and which songs did you use to apply it?

Ok Felipe, you are mentioning the EE vowel. I understand that the "O" vowels are weak....you think the 'EE' ("believe" "me") are also weak?

They dont feel particularly weak...then again they arent up at c5

59 minutes ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Its kinda the same that I say on the blabbering on the technique section... I could say, keep it bright, find more space and go stronger as soon as you get to the higher sections (for example, on "believe" it changes already). The reason is that you are getting too narrow and a bit airy/almost breaking already.

Perhaps, you could use that video I did for middle voice to map down every single vowel that goes above F4 and make sure you are articulating it with a more or less appropriate position (and that will help with the "bright/space" part), but then again, its no magic recipe.

I also had an idea for some other weird stuff that may be helpful to "go strong" and I will throw on the technique section as soon as I find a way to explain it well.

 

But then again, these are band aids that might help a bit and give a idea of how it goes like but won't be really solving the problem at its core. To solve it with technique you would need to... train technique... train support slowly and piece by piece, adjust emission based on it, adjust the EE vowel, adjust all the other vowels using it, start working on the positions for passagio, adjust one vowel using the position, train going in and out of the covered position, train the EE vowel on the covered position, train passaggio on EE, adjust all other vowels for head voice using EE, train the passagio on them all, and so forth.

Usually, alone, this fails big time on the "support" part, and many of these aspects are done on parallel constantly refining everything.

 

How did you train support and attack of sounds so far? How did you assert the exercises and which songs did you use to apply it?

Yeah, common sense would tell me to start on e4 or f4 and train those to be really strong on various vowels etc. C5 is probably out of my strong range no matter what I try at this particular moment

I was just wondering if I was doing something particularly wrong vowel wise etc

the "pros" I tongue in cheek refer to are the ones who argue for 10 pages over tiny shades of meaning in ancient Italian terms lol. yeah, thats REAL practical

I just answer "14"....as in how many angels can dance on the head of a pin etc

yeah, in any case im nowhere near strong enough to do anything meaningful with c5 yet lol. I just figured some of the megapros would lay out a doctoral thesis on vowel narrowing and the position of the left toe as it affects squillo during el nino years

nah, dont need a lesson or consultation.

just posting ACTUAL examples so that hopefully all the guys who talk theoretical knowledge all day long on the forum can apply that theory to someones actual singing lol

These guys argue all day long about this vowel or that vowel etc....but they act scared to comment on ACTUAL singing

cest la vie. If im meant to be a singer nothing can stop it anyway

working on a chorus for a song. The chorus is in D minor and the highest note in the chorus is C5

So I can SORT of ease into the c5 note but its really shaky. Naturally if its doubled and heavily processed it sounds almost legit lol

Here is the doubled/processed vox in the chorus snippet: (btw, be forwarned, there is a flat5 note featured lol)  https://clyp.it/ybkczkss

Now, here is the BARE vx, no compression, no nothing. This is each half of the doubled chorus put back to back. The first time thru was the first one I sang and it was a little better. The 2nd time thru was a little rounded off  https://clyp.it/pjyyq1ke

So essentially I am trying to hit a C5 on the "o" in "open" and on the "uh" in "love"

Here is me JUST hitting those 2 syllables: https://clyp.it/4opbmxzu

And to show the struggle, here is one that cracked: https://clyp.it/wpr4fvas

So lets have some good discussion on how these sound as is, how I can best train for them to be WAY better

for comparison here is a nice B4 by Joe Lynn Turner, obviously im miles from this but this is sort of a goal to aim at: https://clyp.it/o44er4fj

Also any discussion on the mechanical aspect of the cracked note. Physiologically, what broke down there? (and thus, what does the training focus need to be)

1 hour ago, ronws said:

. Way cool, I really like this. And I think you are achieving the Jimmy Page wall of guitars thing in this one.

trust me brother, you aint heard nothin' yet

3 hours ago, Gneetapp said:

 I could totally feel the Zeppelin vibe in the verses,

I wasnt thinking Zep at all except that I could really hear some typical Robert Plant yelps and screams being laid over the 2nd bridge. BTW that chord at 2:57ish is the opening chord from Diary of a Madman lol. Its just begging for some Robert Plant/Ian Gillan stuff

Zep? I have a lot of Zep influence that comes out from time to time. I havent been in a big Zep phase lately but it will come out when its ready. Here is some old Zeppish stuff

http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-24260.php

http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-25271.php

Those are from Wikiloops about 18 months ago before I was really considering singing. I keep forgetting that stuff is there....I need to put vox on some of it lol

Oops, forgot this one lol. IMo major Zep vibe http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-29226.php

and...using the same Zeppish drum track

This one I wrote after being inspired by a documentary on John Bonham...hence the title. http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-28253.php    

49 minutes ago, Gneetapp said:

 I felt that the first "I call on the maker" phrase in the chorus, sounded weird (for my personal taste).

Im going to assume that one of two things is going on in my songs:

1) singing out of tune, especially in the middle notes of phrases

or

2) weird, odd sense of melody and/or melodies against odd chord progressions

As long as its #2 im ok with it lol. As I said before, Im ALWAYS going to purposely mix modes and scales to keep things interesting. This whole song was a bit odd in the melodic structure. Starts off with D to E in intro. Verse is D7 feel. Chorus chords are something like G, D, A, G/F but then there's a D# in there lol and on the phrase "missing Eve" it ends on the A#4 chord. So to be honest it would be hard for me to give a straight faced answer to the question "what key is it in?"

Hopefully thats where the "weirdness" comes in...the verse more or less being in one key while the chorus is in another key. Makes the whole thing sort of "float" IMO.

Nevermind that im singing so far behind the beat that im about to fall off the back of the boat lol

The Garden https://clyp.it/qrfbaigr

Another of my hastily done originals with scratch guitar and the standard pitchy vocals and trite lyrics....then again it's 100% autobiographical.

Some slight 90s influence

The bass was done at the last 2nd just to have a bass on the track...some of its a little iffy

Cool song though? worth polishing? The guitars will have to be redone. The little lead at the beginning clashes with the rhythm because its the same exact tone (nvmnd old strings)

For the middle section I have lots of Robert Plant/Beatles psychedelia planned, Lord willing

Oddly enough, the main thing I am learning is how important mic positioning is lol. Sometimes u gotta get right up ON the mic...or about a foot away

Enjoy

I dig it

6 hours ago, Gneetapp said:

Hi JonJon, if you want to go for a heavier sound you could try tuning your guitar with dropped D and play those bar chords riffs. 

actually this song WAS drop D lol. Of course that helps etc but its more than that, I just havent gotten that sort of Alice In Chains tone yet...or even Chevelle (id love to get close to the vibe of a song like "Face to the Floor")

Part of that is the tone out of the amp etc...part of it is production. Im pretty sure ill get close to figuring it out though, im in a good steep learning curve atm

Im probably going to ditch this one lol

going to attempt to get closer to an AIC/STP sound.

So far nothing I have done has been heavy enough for my tastes. My voice is too freaking clean for one thing lol...then when I double it, it just gets more weird sounding. Definitely gotta get more rasp.distortion in there.

Putting me a nice drum track together now...nice 82 BPM vibe lol

Gonna go for something with less syllables so I can actually sustain some notes

One problem I have as far as heavy stuff....I simply can NOT get a really heavy guitar sound. Its funny cuz ive got a Peavey 6505+ combo which is supposed to ONLY be good for really heavy stuff. People were saying you could NOT get a bluesy tone from it. Im the opposite...ALL I can get from it is crunchy/bluesy/classic rock vibes lol. (on this recording I just used my fender solid state amp with a pedal in front)

1 minute ago, Gneetapp said:

 being lazy and inconsistent in the training

 

wow, you just outlined my whole approach!

9 minutes ago, Gneetapp said:

JonJon, so that is the question my friend: why do you write and record songs? If it gives you pleasure and a sense of accomplishment, just do it man! You could also create a Soundcloud account and post your songs there. I bet you would get tons of followers and even collaboration requests. I am not saying that all your songs are 100% ready, pro-level, radio/consumer-ready, but man, you definitely have a lot of talent that should not go to waste. I wish I had more free time in my hands at the moment to dedicate to music (singing, playing guitar, recording, and performing), because I would ask you to collaborate with me on some compositions, as I think it would be so much fun. I think it would be a crime if you don't come back to finish this song, now that you now it kicks serious arse. Congrats man!

yeah it gets pretty deep. How much of a sense of accomplishment can one get when only 20 people hear my "lot of talent" lol. a lot of time gets sacrificed...for what? I cant answer it.

Of course, the Bible says not to waste your talents. If the boss gives you $1000 to invest and he comes back 5 years later and you just hand him the $1000 back, what have you done?? not much

I guess I need to take the good side of it. That snippet WAS probably the most "pro" thing ive posted...so at least im heading in the right direction....and I only learned to bridge like 2 weeks ago.  Im thinking that if I continue at my current pace i'll be a great musician when im approximately 93

haha, I used to like Ted a lot. I loved the "Intensities in 10 Cities" album and various other things he did. A lot of people probably dont know that Meatloaf sang most of the Free For All album lol

hehe, AFAIK its original. Every time I come up with a riff or melody or lyric I always wonder if its just not a note for note ripoff of something I heard before lol

The melody. I did NOT have lyrics first. The first line is sort of my paraphrase of the Bible parable where He says "I dont know you or where you come from" lol. The lyrics were sort of worked out along with the melody. I leave it sort of flexible until I start singing. Like the line where it says "this might be a good TIIIME for you" had also been considered as "this might be a good good time". I had to sing that line numerous times. All of those high notes were a struggle because its right near the top of my range

I sort of decided the song would be in Drop D since the drums were more on the metal side and I havent done any Drop D stuff in a while. I think I had decided in my head to start on a high note and then descend to start the first phrase. So actually I did work out the melody on guitar.

I think I laid down some D chords or whatever just to get going. Then I started looking for a note near the top of my range but that I knew I could get. I just decided on G# since thats the flat 5 of D minor and it worked out conveniently. I just started on the G# and started goofing off working phrases going down. If I remember correctly I was goofing off working out the phrase by manually playing it against the low D string....playing at the 10th fret

Then the 2nd phrase "I aint really got time" is just ascending D minor pentatonic

I didnt work out every little nuance on the guitar. I was using 2 tracks for scratch guitar ideas. I had the general gist of the melody as one of those tracks but I didnt try to work out every little phrase. I just put down the main contours. For the phrase "to figure it out" im pretty sure I had something a little different laid down but when I got to singing it I just went with what felt natural

Not all of the BGV were worked out on guitar. Most of them were just a higher or lower octave or I just went by feel. The very lowest line is almost monotone which is sort of like the way he does it in Aerosmiths "Nobodys Fault" when he says 'Out of rhyme or reason..everyone's to blame" etc. He has the regular vocal melody but then he overdubbed a line that is pretty much just one monotone note

There is one actual harmony in there which is essentially a 5th lower. Now that one I had to work out on guitar because Im not to the level to hear that stuff in my head. I worked out the first part on guitar and then sort of went by feel on singing it once I sort of heard what it was going to be like. I muted all of the other vocal tracks and just pretended I was working out the melody started from that lower point.

I think I had most of the melody worked out and then I started working on finalizing the guitar chords etc. I sort of matched the opening descending vocal riff with the descending guitar line and then I goofed off and figured out I like the C chord and G major chord. The G chord was fingered like this, low to high 5x04xx and then on the 2nd guitar it was x554xx

So I had "scratch" versions of the guitar work laid down and I then put down all of the vocals. Then I went back and redid all of the guitars. On the scratch parts I hadnt even tuned the guitar lol. So I did get worried for a second hoping that all of those vox I laid down were actually in D hehe. Luckily when I checked my D string it was in tune lol. So I went back and redid all of the guitars and about 90% of that stayed the same

An interesting thing on the bass line. The first time I play C on guitar I played an F bass note lol. I just liked the way it sounded. On the guitar I almost did the same thing. On guitar it gives a nice big suspended sound that a lot of drop D guys use but I was worried that it might be a bit much since the song was already going to be pretty congested etc

bass line with rhythm gtr--> https://clyp.it/wssigf3n

to be dead honest....dunno if the song will ever get completed now lol. Thats the downside to NOT doing a one day wonder. Finishing songs is like eating leftovers. The original thrill is gone lol.

I aint gonna lie. Its pretty discouraging. Why spend all this time writing songs etc when maybe 20 people tops will ever hear them? lol

I can post it to my Fbook friends list. I think I have 143 friends currently. MAYBE 5 of them will even post a like and one of those will be my mother.

I have 2 coworkers that play guitar. One of them also writes originals and is a frontman. I used to message him when I wrote a new song, or id burn him a CD and bring it to work. I dont even bother now because he wont even really comment or he may say "yeah that was cool". I dont even waste his or my time anymore. Heck. he and I actually did 2 songs together which came out really cool. One was his and one was mine. That was before I sang so I got him to sing and play slide guitar. I wanted to work with him some more but it never worked out for whatever reasons. I guess he wants to do his own thing and be in total control. So for instance I wont even bother playing this snippet for him

So in that regard I cant EXACTLY answer why I spend time messing with music. Im assuming it must bring some sort of inner pleasure lol. I dang sure must not do it for external feedback lol

Going by GneeTaps suggestion, I wrote a chorus only today. Worked numerous hours for an 11 second snippet lol.

workflow was along these lines:

1) Drums programmed yesterday

2) Started writing melody in D...starting on the highest note and working down. Starting note is (supposed to be anyway lol) a G#4 which is the flat5 in the key of D

3) started putting down a few scratch guitar parts using practice amp

4) sort of bounced back and forth between finalizing the melody and changing the guitar to fit better

5) Sang all the lead VX

6) Layered all the BGV. 4 separate lines, all doubled. It gets a little into the Eagles/Queen/Boston/Yes vibe

7) Redid all the guitar parts (still just used practice amp though). 2 main parts, both doubled

8) added bass

9) mixed....while falling asleep about 10x

Anyway, let me know how it sounds. if nothing else its pretty interesting

Here are all the various parts....pretty trippy hearing the layered vocal track by itself

Full snippet https://clyp.it/41g4esi0

Rhythm Track https://clyp.it/joo5tv4l

Full vocal tracks https://clyp.it/155rws0y

Lead Vx only, definitely at the top end of my range https://clyp.it/uv0tgitn 

BGV only, 4 separate parts, each doubled (see if u can pick out the parts) https://clyp.it/bvfb0lkn

 Enjoy