JonJon

8 minutes ago, ronws said:

Sometimes, when I am stuck on a chord change, I literally go to the circle of fifths to pick the next chord to see if that breaks me out of a rut or provides an interval that fits what the melody had in mind.

 

I probably do something like that but more on a subconscious level. Its almost a rule that im going to go off key in the solo or bridge section. So I just work backwards. Like if the song is in E minor and im going to come back in on a prechorus on a C chord...then for the solo I might go to whatever chords but I end on a G7 to go to that prechorus C and im back in my original key. Even the G7 alone is "out of key" compared to the original key of e minor because G7 has that F note. So the solo could even be fmaj7th, G7th which would be a nice change from the eminor key but the g7th goes to the C which goes back in key

We dont have to look far for an example. Look above at Minnesota Mama lol. Song is E. So it goes to a little bridge in E but then for the solo it goes F#7, A7, B7....of course the B7 goes right back to the original key of E

going up 2 frets for the solo is pretty easy to do and gives a nice change in feel

Another cool thing for a solo or bridge is to go to the relative major but make it minor. For instance if the song is in eminor you could always go to the relative major of G for a solo....but to make it more interesting you could go to G MINOR

ive stumbled upon some ideas like that but now I have to work backwards and try to learn how to do at least SOME standard stuff lol

haha, I just happen to be listening to Still of the Night as I read your reply.

one issue about doing the whole "light verse, build, huge chorus" thing is that after a while u r just writing the same song over and over. Yeah, it works for that quick emotional hit but after hearing 5 in a row from, say, Shinedown....even that formula gets old

A song like Still of the Night, or Emotional Rescue from the Stones....they are more like little acid trips as opposed to formulas

U dig Blue Murder and Badlands too?

I always wonder how they come up with some of these more offbeat sections

or

I think generally my singing skills have really limited my writing so far. With me its just getting some chords and then just trying to sing anything that fits lol. As my singing gets stronger ill be able to be more flexible

28 minutes ago, Gneetapp said:

I find it really interesting the way you build your songs, changing the chords after vocals are recorded. I might try it someday. I know that some people start composing a song with the melody (lead vocals), than chords (accompaniment) and lyrics. This way you actually have way more freedom with the melody, without worrying about key or modes (major vs minor). However, I never been able to do this way so far. But maybe I was lacking the vocal skills, better pitch control, or who knows. Anyways, very nice work, and thank you for sharing your techniques. Cheers and keep on rocking

no I didnt say that I actually changed chords after writing a melody...but one CAN do that. I would generally be waaaay too lazy to do that lol. I have only done that when goofing off BUT its a legit way to do stuff. Same thing can easily be done in a guitar solo. U can solo over plain Jane chords and then go back and redo some of the chords and u could get some wierd and interesting plot twists going on.

Im gonna write today and I think ill try what you mention...just write the melody first and sort of plan out the way it builds etc...then go back and work out chords.

I remember writing the whole bass guitar line out first one time and thinking id never be able to put any cool guitar over it but it worked out good anyway

In a way though its still a learning process because your ear is still your ear. Like I got a friend who writes but he ONLY writes sort of primitive rootsy blues rock with the emphasis on the blues aspect. So if he is in the key of A its either going to be 1,4,5 chords or maybe A,C,D. Thats all thats on his color palette...so whether he does chords first or melody first he still aint gonna come up with, say, a Randy Rhoads/Yngwie diminished chord sequence because its just not in him.

Well mainly I post to share and also for feedback on the singing etc.

Its a little offputting for someone to use a derogatory adjective for something as subjective as lyrics. I mean, its rock n roll.....we arent trying to develop a doctoral thesis.

At my age, am I going to lose sleep over it? Nope. If I never play or sing another note of music in my life I don't think the world will care much. So there it is

1 hour ago, Gneetapp said:

I liked it man! The INTRO reminds me of the Fab 4, and you are really good with the guitar parts. The general vocal melody is nice for the verses, but I think the CHORUS should sound a bit different, with more energy (or higher pitched vocals). Now that I know your creative/recording process I have even more respect for your recordings. I just think it is too bad you never go back and polish/improve your songs. I would like to know how you come up with the vocal melody. I mean, do you start with chords and then try to fit the melody? I'm asking this because that is the way I've done so far, but I would love to start with the vocal melody and then fit the chords. Keep on rocking man!

My current process is along these lines:

1) Drums- Ez Drummer2

2) Chords/riffs

3) vocals

Thats why in the unfinished state there are often 8 bar "gaps" in my demos. Thats because I programmed in 8 bars on the drums, like in the song intro....I put in chords, but I never put in a vocal parts of guitar licks or whatever.

On this particular song I WAS going for a Beatles thing but not as far as the vocal intro lol. I was actually going for that Beatles/Byrds jangly guitar thing. But I NEVER get what I go for...I just use something like "Beatles vibe" or "Skynyrd vibe" in my thought process. Once I start recording I just let whatever happens happen. If I have 8 hours on an off day I cant spend 4 of those trying to find an elusive gtr tone etc.

So like on this one I put in the verse and chorus vx but then I had that "gap" where I had programmed that drum intro...so I filled it with those sort of abstract "ahhhh" vocals and almost non-sensical chords.

Its always "chords first" then melody although on occasion I have sort of done it the other way. To me, how can u come up with an interesting melody without chords? You dont have a framework for the melody etc. So I do chords first and I almost ALWAYS sort of switch keys or borrow chords from other keys or just put in "off" chords but not in a way where its really dissonant.

if u check the backing track to this birthday song, u hear that it goes in an out of key at least 3 times. The intro is sort of not in a really defined key, then the verse is A,G,D in the key of A (so its A mixolydian really)....then the chorus is A major (A,E,D if I remember correctly but probably inverted like A, E/G#, D/F#. One good/bad point with me is that I hardly ever follow strict convention.

Then the bridge is back to A mixolydian, something like G/A, A7 or maybe G, A7. Then the solo goes to A MINOR after the whole song has been in A MAJOR

Happy Birthday Sugarboo backing track https://clyp.it/knt05ks3

So thats a way by which I add variety as far as the chords vs melody idea. If I just lay down chords, say, strictly in a major key....then I sing a strictly major melody...how interesting is that going to be? So just by habit I tend to throw in more interesting chords. U can sing a boring melody over interesting chords and all of a sudden the boring melody sounds interesting or even exotic.

Even for me to use A,E,D on the birthday song was a departure for me lol. Im trying to become more conventional though, at least on the chorus...so I can write singable hooks etc. Some of my fave bands like Cheap Trick can take 3 regular chords and make a killer chorus hook. I learned some of my stuff from them I guess like in "If you want my love" where the intro is in E major (or is it A major? I forget)....so they do the Major intro with nice harmony vocals etc and then when the actual verse starts they just abruptly change to MINOR but in the same key lol. I love it

Its almost guaranteed in my songs that the bridge or solo section or both will introduce a new tonality

You CAN also play around with the chords AFTER you lay down the melody...which is called reharmonization. Lets say you lay down basic chords in A major. You lay down your melody. Now you go back and mute those chords and you experiment with putting different chords under the existing melody. Thats one way to add to the amount of stuff you can hear because you will come up with combinations of chord/melody which you never could hear in your head without some experimenting.

I did it with the Star Spangled Banner a long time ago on guitar. Keep the melody but change the underlying chords. Very fun. I did it with guitar solos too. I worked out a solo in B minor over chords in B minor. Then I kept the solo in place but played them over an A to G progression. So now my same exact solo was in A mixolydian...which is the same notes as B minor. Though its the exact same solo...it sounds TOTALLY different over those chords. If I would have done chords in pure D major it would have been yet a third sound for that same solo

Frank Zappa had a thing he called Xenochromy...where he'd take a solo or part off of one song, in whatever key and whatever tempo.....then he'd drop it in on another song, maybe in a different key and tempo. Maybe the songs were originally played years apart lol. DAWs make stuff like that easy

3 hours ago, Gneetapp said:

Hey JonJon, this is only the 2nd original song I listened from you, and I got to tell you that I really dig your songs man! I could get the Jagger feel you mentioned, but I don't think it sounded as an imitation, more like a little influence. Well done. Regarding the sung melody, I had a feeling that you were singing a mix of lead and harmony vocals. Maybe because my brain was tricked to expect higher pitched vocals when you started to go higher. But then you went back down. I understand that you just recently managed to bridge registers, and it was probably the reason why you didn't stay higher. If I may humbly suggest (or request) you to play around with higher harmonies, at least as backing vocals. Nevertheless, it sounds really good already. You just got another fan...

cool, I have 2 fans now. (u and my mother)

Im not too sure where u thought the melody was going to go higher. In these sort of Rolling Stonesish songs I dont picture them having really wide ranging melodies.

And Im not making excuses, but this and the other one (and virtually all that I do) are one day wonders lol. That means that when I stand to the mic I generally have most of the lyrics written...BUT NO MELODY. And as u say im just starting to bridge registers etc and struggling to even sing in ONE register.....so I doubt ill have too many soaring melodies anytime soon. The closest I may come to that would be as in the other song where it may build from section to section.

on that note though, sometimes the prechorus is actually a higher melody than the chorus

So far I havent taken time to work out any BG vox either. Its all a bit much to be honest....and I totally suck at going back and adding to songs. Im one of those people who is ready to start the next project rather than tidy up the previous one. Especially if it only got a lukewarm reception anyway....is adding a tambourine and BGV to the chorus going to all of a sudden make a producer beat down my door???

The whole BGV thing is hard for me to envision at this point anyway. I need to do some woodshedding. for instance lets say I can hit a squeeky B4. So maybe a G4 or G#4 is about my best sung note. Well if I sing that in the melody then what am I going to do for BGV a third higher or whatever?

So it almost seems id have to plan out the whole thing in advance. Pick the right key and start off pretty low and keep the main melody somewhat low in order to leave comfortable singing room to add higher harmonies. Trust me...im the type that could get into a Queen/Yes kind of thing if I were in the right mood. I DO have a short gregorian chant thing posted somewhere lol.

there is this evil thing that holds me back and limits my musical progress and sucks the life out of me...its called a JOB lol

There is a very low level of reward for even posting these songs anyway lol. You work all day etc and no matter what u put out it will get poopoo'ed.

Even if I took a solid week and polished them to the best I currently can....not a lot would change. If people dont hear a pro production they'll say the whole thing is worthless

here is one from 3 weeks ago. (pre bridging) Birthday song for a girl im in love with....who probably didnt even hear the song. Yep, it got savaged too..this sucked, that sucked, this isnt right, that could be better etc etc....at least mom liked it

https://clyp.it/2chj11qz

2 hours ago, ronws said:

I think Collin can say what he wishes, because it is just an opinion.

Sure, anyone can say anything at anytime. But will it carry any weight?

Some would find it a bit odd for someone with 25 posts  to start in with adjectives like "bland" etc.....especially if they themselves havent posted any original material. Im not a gardener...so I dont critique gardens. Im not a playwright...so I dont critique plays. Im not a fan of rap at all and im not familiar with it...so why would I critique a rap song?

But in any case you are correct. Anyone can critique these songs....and then they can fully expect their critique to be critiqued.

4 hours ago, Collin571 said:

I like it and it suits it's genre, but if it was improved some it might be something I'd listen to continuously.  So yeah I'm probably not your target audience but I'm excited to witness your progression.  Oh yeah and sorry if my first comment was more offensive than productive my friends tell me I have a douchey way of saying things XD.

as a 22 yr old who looks 12, critiquing the work of a 48 yr old, u r fighting an uphill battle lol. (you'll understand that when you r twice as old as u r now)

that being said, any and all feedback is what it is...one should take it for what it's worth. Even if its framed in a douchey way, there may still be some truth to it lol

Im sort of at the point in my singing and songwriting where I like about 30% of what I am putting out. In other words I have a lonnnngggg way to go before I really impress MYSELF. So I am not too surprised that others arent too impressed either.

If u take it that I like the singing of Lenny Wolf, Robert Plant, C Cornell, L Staley then u can see I have a ways to go.

And musically I love stuff like old vanHalen, Blue Murder, BulletBoys....yet my vibe so far isnt even in that universe....so I have a ways to go to get nearer the sound that I am after.

Just struggling to find the right drum track is like an endless thing. That in itself determines like 80% of the vibe

lastly, production is a HUGE subject...a lot of bland stuff can be made to sound epic and a lot of good songs can sound sucky all due to production. So in addition to singing, writing, and playing the instruments, when you hear one of my originals you are also hearing the production. It's a long uphill slog lol

So a song like this one, conceived, written, recorded, produced all in one day...it aint gonna be perfect lol

I said, as I said before, I was GOING for a Coverdale sound....but im not there yet lol.

I dont have anything against Southern Rock at all, or MH....im a Southern boy after all. I just for the life of me dont hear an ounce of Danny Joe anywhere in the vicinity of my voice.

I might TRY to sound like DJB and see how different it is lol

Pretty sure you know im not insulted brother, peace

here is the line as it would sound as an adlib over the 2nd half of chorus chords

https://clyp.it/ji0yjoj0

hehe, I could get fancy and do some reharmonizing. In other words take that vocal line and just change the chords under it. good stuff. I did that on guitar a long time ago with the melody to the Star Spangled Banner lol....same melody over totally different chords

5 minutes ago, MDEW said:

Yes, that and the next line, "But I was runnin Blind". in the first verse there is a similar thing but it may just be an inflection not quite centered.

In responce to Rons suggestion of a slight Molly Hatchet sound........ I once tried to start a thread asking why people do not hear themselves as others do, even when listening to a recording. The thread did not take off because no one hears themselves the way that others do and could not understand that I was being serious.

the line at the end of the first verse "sometimes u feel like, u gotta get away"...is like my fave thing in the song almost lol. One thing about that line is the background chords go a little "out" of key as it builds.

check it https://clyp.it/5eqrzpep

the verse chords are F#m, Dmaj7, E...but then after the 2nd E it goes F#MAJOR with open B, D7th with open B....then prechorus is D7, E7

The F#major with open B is all exotic sounding but its really just the E chord slid up 2 frets lol

That all being said, im not sure of the exact notes im singing in that line "sometimes u feel like"...but to me it works even if it has a slightly unsettling sound due to the shifting chords. Listening to the iso vocals it sounds pretty centered to me...I think it just sounds a bit odd over the shifting chord center

for my ears, the tone on "you GOTTA" is the best tone ive put down so far. Is that a G#4?

here is some of the iso vx with processing https://clyp.it/v1hanzcg

nice error on the 2nd chorus, oopsy, I sang 'lord I DIDNT listen" and the double was "I WOULDNT listen" lol

46 minutes ago, ronws said:

Molly Hatchet meets Ziggy Stardust. I liked it.

 

btw, on the verse was going for Coverdale again lol...hard to get his style down. I did learn some stuff on this one though about being close or farther from the mic. Getting right up on the mic helped on some parts

1 hour ago, MDEW said:

    I like it. You have a pretty good start. I would not worry about the lyrics being bland, my wife listens to a song where the ONLY lyrics are "Go on and Holler" "Let me here you Holler" "Holler" "Holler" " "Let me hear you Holler".   I hate that song.

    On those parts where you are starting to get higher in the song, you may be loosing the key center. Use your guitar and play the melody over the chords and see if you need to maybe sing a higher or lower note here and there to stay in key with the background music.

     I have to do this sometimes to help find the correct singing note.

     Love the guitar work.

listening back with fresh ears, the only line im iffy about is "I did not know it then" (1:50)

I like the overall song as much or better than yesterday, which is a good thing. But id still say its not what I WANT to sound like overall...but it IS what I sound like so far lol

17 minutes ago, ronws said:

Molly Hatchet meets Ziggy Stardust. I liked it.

 

u killin me with the Molly Hatchet references lol. I dont hear ANYTHING im doing that sounds like DJB. If someone paid me to try to emulate Danny Joe id have to do something very different than what im doing lol

Im all about dat bass, bout dat bass, no treble.

yeah, im just not up to that level yet

1 hour ago, Collin571 said:

Your voice is very expressive, but the song is kind of slow and the lyrics are somewhat bland.  Of course this is my opinion but it would've been nice to have some mystery, intrigue or shocking material thrown in there.

ok champ...waiting on u to show me how. Whats your favorite song currently?

Another 1 day wonder.

not 100% finished...needs bass gtr and some ad libs such as in the intro chorus

fun stuff    https://clyp.it/ccf4wf40

the "bridging" thing lol.

The whole concept is sort of misplaced I think. One is singing certain notes...am I correct? If my passagio is around, say, E4...and then I sing a nice G4 in head voice (not falsetto)....technically I "bridged"....is this correct?

I am assuming there are notes in this song that are not in anything else I have posted. If I hit a G4 or G#4 in head voice, I doubt I have done that before....before I think it would have had to be disconnected falsetto

Therefore the bridging isnt supposed to be something one can hear is it?? its simply an ability to hit a note. Pretty sure after a while singers dont think about it much unless they are in a low head tone range where they might have a choice of bridging or using more force and just belting

22 hours ago, ronws said:

Another song that ends on A4, "Stairway to Heaven." Except, on the early album versions before the modern day practice of digital re-mastering, you could hear Plant a few cents flat from the A4. But it was a keeper because he had some awesome tone going on.

that was back when albums had that certain quality....lets see, what was it called? Been so long I cant remember....uhmm...oh yeah! HUMAN!

single tracked bare vx no compression, no nothing

https://clyp.it/mn5tcvd1

some G and G#4 stuff in there. Definitely mixed voice because I wasnt trying to choke it up in chest voice...instead was trying to feel the note more on the palate

the flip side to posting compressed/EQ'ed/double tracked vocals is posting bare stuff and then people just dont listen and they say your recording sux

30 minutes ago, ronws said:

With your constant use of double and triple tracked vocals, it would be difficult to hear any changes in voice. To really hear things, we would need to hear one vocal without all the effects.

as far as the bridging part, it would only be noticeable that I am having an easier time hitting notes above the typical male bridge (without going into my standard falsetto mode)

I think there is a g4 in there...maybe some other notes. After singing all morning I couldnt concentrate enough to discern the highest pitches and match them on piano lol. So instead of a choking sound around that g4 note, there is a little more freedom. Then again there is a HUGE difference between sirening thru the break and actually singing phrases thru it. This song had a lot of parts that I found hard to phrase

The song wasnt lending itself as much to good long sustained notes

23 minutes ago, ronws said:

On this song, your voice reminded me of that guy from Midnight Oil

for me that is like 1" from someone saying I should quit singing....but it is what it is. Thanks for the feedback

I only had LS in my mind when trying to envision the song and somewhat when writing the lyrics. Its not likely i'll ever get the LS rhythm section feel. LS was like 7 dudes and a producer/engineer...i'm 1 dude

https://clyp.it/sidridqg

essentially trying to learn to bridge etc. Not sure how much bridging is happening but for sure I can feel the benefit of doing some glottal attacks and trying to feel resonance up on my soft palate etc

When picturing the song was thinking of Lynyrd Skynyrd but nothing I do will ever sound like LS lol.....I ended up going for a sort of Mick Jagger bratty vocal style on the verse

compression/delay/tube distortion/rev etc used on vocals

verse not doubled (but delayed etc)

the 1 prechorus is obviously doubled

chorus is obviously doubled and delayed etc etc. Usually I double and leave both doubles about the same volume to where it sounds chorusy....on the chorus I kept one double a little quieter

a VERY scratch demo. , no bass, , no bgv, only 1 guitar track..gaping holes where solos and vocal banter should be. Some nice spots left for Whole Lotta Love type improv. Guitar will have to be redone etc..ending patched up. I forgot to edit out the cymbal count in lol

enjoy