my take on Still of the Night by Whitesnake

[darkclaw3000]

now this is a tricky one. i chose to go the 'screamier, raspier' sound to go with the song. Seems like it would fit better.

but i think im lacking clarity? what do you guys think?

http://www.box.com/s/7i4usbfph5nxyxgkleom

[Jugulator]

Not bad, man! I think you sound a little too raspy for this song.

[jonpall]

I don't think you sound too raspy. Note that Coverdale was always a bit raspier live than on records. I think the only thing you need to perfect this (and you're close) is more practise with this type of singing. You're doing a great job. It's a very challenging song. You could work on a couple of things:

1. Try make each word slightly more understandable, even in the high parts, but watch out that you don't overdo it because it can cause tension.

2. Sometimes you let go of your vocal cord closure a bit too low in your range. It's ok for the VERY highest notes to have little cord closure (essentially just re-enforced falsetto or "metal-like-neutral" or "mln"), but the notes between E4 and at least C5 - preferably up to E5, usually sound better with a bit more cord closure (so you'd want to be in curbing/mixed voice in that part of your voice).

If you fix these issues, you'll simply sound scary good. Like one of the pros. Note that this is just my opinion of this. But all in all, I thought you did VERY well and simply enjoyed listening to it. You've got metal in your blood, son. lol.

[darkclaw3000]

@jug - i actually think i was. thinkin i overdid it at some parts! thanks bro! and dude your vids rock too bro. been checking em out. you're a very good singer! =D

@jon - i agree that i do need more practice singing like this. although there are like some points in my vocal where raspy will sound bad, (better on clean) but i cant get to switch it fast enough, if i do, i will break or crack. still trying to work the kinks outta my voice..

1 - do u think twang will help on this? i noticed when i sing the raspyness, it wasnt on a twang. a more, frontal area in the mouth, i think around the soft palate area?

2 - sorry jon i dont quite get what you are trying to say here.... what do u mean by letting go of cord closure too low in my range? sorry jon! =(

hahaha thanks so much for the kind words jon. i tried my best! glad you enjoyed it! one of my life goals is to sing for ppl, and they enjoy it, relate to it, and remember it. =D

[ronws]

Aliz, I think you sang it the best that you can, the way you sing. And that's enough. And you can already sing for people. And if you can pass the test in this particular crowd, you should be able to handle singing for "civilians."

[darkclaw3000]

thanks ron! you always gave good advice! i will do my best to entertain everyone! :D

[jonpall]

Aliz, I think you sang it the best that you can, the way you sing. And that's enough. And you can already sing for people. And if you can pass the test in this particular crowd, you should be able to handle singing for "civilians."

darkclaw is a very good singer, but I'd like to mention that quite often the "civilians" will be much more brutal in their comments than the people on this forum.

[DJDeth]

You have a perfect voice for this Coverdale stuff. In the verses you sound really amazing. The rasp is great, a bit airy somehow, but if it doesn't hurt than you should stick to it as it sounds killer. I think what you can work on are the very high screams, both here and in your Child in Time cover they sound a bit too constricted. Keep on rockin' man!

[ronws]

Then I should clarify my point. Civilians don't care about all this detail. They like it or they don't like it.

And some people out there may have different levels of sophistication in musical education, I'm not trying to paint with a big brush. So, to clarify, if you can do well for the people here, I can imagine you doing well for the public, in general.

[Olem]

Well, I feel there is a tendency here on this forum that people do not want to step on each others toes, maybe those people have some fear of being stabbed when they publish something i do not know, but i hope this critique section do not turn out to be something of a mutual admiration like facebook or something. It is nothing wrong of being nice, of course, but you are more nice if you are honest and mention what you did not think sounded so good so one could improve. In my opinion civilians are more brutal generally because they have their references, good references, if they hear someone sing Iron Maiden they will compare you to Bruce Dickinson and if you are nowhere close to him you will hear it, just watch a Youtube-clip of Blaze Bayley singing The Trooper and you will see what i mean.

Now, over to your song, Aliz, it sounded very good to my ears, a few spots where you sounded a little weak in your higher parts, like around 2:00, but overall a very good effort.

[jonpall]

darkclaw - cord closure = adding a "cry" or a "moan" sound to your voice. Don't overdo it and don't underdo it. You'll know the right balance when it doesn't strain your throat. It will add thickness to your tone in the passagio and higher.

[Snax]

I think you sang your ASS off dude! That f'n ROCKED!!! :cool: I have to add that I REALLY dig your rasp. I wish i could sing this song half as good as you just did. Seriously.

[darkclaw3000]

what olem said is very true, more so with the ppl i'm around with. easily compared to the original singer. if you don't sound like them, you're not good. even though all your pitch is right, pronunciation and all whatnots are there. it's irritating.

@deth - thx bro. i believe i was a little constricted too. sometimes i'm really not sure if the distortion im making is the correct distortion, or its just weak/bad vocal folds. because i have a really hard time taking it out the having it in. but when its in, my throat really don't feel a thing.

@jonpall - ah thx bro. now i get it. rob told me about staying in the middle of a spectrum. one end is too much quack, the other end too much air. thats a new challenge for me.

also, i would really love to have those 'brutal civilians' listen to my singing and really know what they have to say. anybody have suggestions on where to put my clip up for critique other then here?

[jonpall]

No darkclaw, I'm not talking about the amount of twang. I'm talking about the amount of cry. If you're not sure what it is, you can use the search button to look for good explanations of it.

[darkclaw3000]

oh darn. i guess i misunderstood n misinterpret it.

[ronws]

Olem, here is the reason I applaud people so much. It's not about just being a mutual admiration society. It is, however, about how any organism, especially complex organisms learn.

It's called operant conditioning. Organisms avoid punishment and seek reward. There are more complex terms to describe that but that's it, in a nutshell. Now, people are going to think I am talking about corporal punishment. That is only one action under what qualifies as punishment. Positive punishment is a stimulus that causes a behavior to not be re-inforced and to eventually stop. An effective punishment stops the behavior in one or two applications. Anymore than that and it is not a punishment. But punishment does not tell you where to go, only where you may not go.

Reward is a stimulus that causes a behavior to increase in repetition. If someone gives you a reward when you do a certain behavior, you are more likely to repeat that behavior. It's a survival thingy.

So, when I applaud someone for a particular thing, it is my hope that they will continue toward the improvement. Often, in the presence of a strong reward, and undesirable behavior will extinguish, for lack of reward.

Some will say that constructive criticism is not punishment. Yes it is, in the psychological technical defintion. You, in critiquing, are saying that what was being done was wrong or not right. The advantage, here, is that often the criticism is accompanied by a direction of which way to go.

So, what happens when you offer criticism and the person still continues on with the way they are going? Is it a malfunction of the process? No. It's because what they are doing is more rewarding than what you have to offer. So, for example, you tell someone not to try and sound like another singer or sing that type of music and they continue, anyway. Well, that is because the vision they have for themselves to pursue that voice and that music is more rewarding than any criticisms to the contrary.

That's not to say that pointed criticism without any particular direction away won't work. It can. And did, for me. I had a bad habit of crashing notes and didn't realize it. Until jonpall pointed it out. The next week, I was powerless to stop myself from observing how I spoke and sang. And not crashing the notes was rewarding for me, personally, and so I was able to stop it, unless that effect is so desired. Such as how Bob Seger sings "Turn the Page."

But I am an oddball, unlike most any other person I have met and I am not bragging or arrogant, in that regard. But generally, when giving criticism, one should also give praise where it is due. The training and improvement advance so much quicker.

I am one of the few oddballs that can appreciate someone's performance and not expect them to sound like the original singer, though I may expect them to sing in the original range. If not, at least make it his/her own song. Sing it like you mean it. And yes, we tend to compare to the original. And just because we do that doesn't make it right nor does it validate trying to direct someone to sound like the original singer. Not all behaviors we have can be justified just because they exist.

Man's biggest predator is himself. We excel at killing our own moreso than any other species. Doesn't make it right or valid. It's just a thing.

That being said, yes, I can still trip myself up trying to sing a song like the original singer. Just because I can make the preceding intellectual statement does not stop me from being human, as well.

Peace, love, and understanding.

[Olem]

Olem, here is the reason I applaud people so much. It's not about just being a mutual admiration society. It is, however, about how any organism, especially complex organisms learn.

It's called operant conditioning. Organisms avoid punishment and seek reward. There are more complex terms to describe that but that's it, in a nutshell. Now, people are going to think I am talking about corporal punishment. That is only one action under what qualifies as punishment. Positive punishment is a stimulus that causes a behavior to not be re-inforced and to eventually stop. An effective punishment stops the behavior in one or two applications. Anymore than that and it is not a punishment. But punishment does not tell you where to go, only where you may not go.

Reward is a stimulus that causes a behavior to increase in repetition. If someone gives you a reward when you do a certain behavior, you are more likely to repeat that behavior. It's a survival thingy.

So, when I applaud someone for a particular thing, it is my hope that they will continue toward the improvement. Often, in the presence of a strong reward, and undesirable behavior will extinguish, for lack of reward.

Some will say that constructive criticism is not punishment. Yes it is, in the psychological technical defintion. You, in critiquing, are saying that what was being done was wrong or not right. The advantage, here, is that often the criticism is accompanied by a direction of which way to go.

So, what happens when you offer criticism and the person still continues on with the way they are going? Is it a malfunction of the process? No. It's because what they are doing is more rewarding than what you have to offer. So, for example, you tell someone not to try and sound like another singer or sing that type of music and they continue, anyway. Well, that is because the vision they have for themselves to pursue that voice and that music is more rewarding than any criticisms to the contrary.

That's not to say that pointed criticism without any particular direction away won't work. It can. And did, for me. I had a bad habit of crashing notes and didn't realize it. Until jonpall pointed it out. The next week, I was powerless to stop myself from observing how I spoke and sang. And not crashing the notes was rewarding for me, personally, and so I was able to stop it, unless that effect is so desired. Such as how Bob Seger sings "Turn the Page."

But I am an oddball, unlike most any other person I have met and I am not bragging or arrogant, in that regard. But generally, when giving criticism, one should also give praise where it is due. The training and improvement advance so much quicker.

I am one of the few oddballs that can appreciate someone's performance and not expect them to sound like the original singer, though I may expect them to sing in the original range. If not, at least make it his/her own song. Sing it like you mean it. And yes, we tend to compare to the original. And just because we do that doesn't make it right nor does it validate trying to direct someone to sound like the original singer. Not all behaviors we have can be justified just because they exist.

Man's biggest predator is himself. We excel at killing our own moreso than any other species. Doesn't make it right or valid. It's just a thing.

That being said, yes, I can still trip myself up trying to sing a song like the original singer. Just because I can make the preceding intellectual statement does not stop me from being human, as well.

Peace, love, and understanding.

Hello, Ron, you are a very nice person that is for sure and you are a great contributor on this forum. I agree with you that people seek reward, it is a natural thing. But i find it a little peculiar when you say that, what i interpretate as: reward=improvement. That is not true if the reward is misplaced, that means, as you are saying, the singer will continue what she or he is doing and that also means that errors ,likely, are never going to be erased and no development will occur.

Constructive critisiscm is a form of punishment yes, even though i think punishment is a too strong word, but that is something that every great artist in this world has got and some has improved from. If a singer cannot take negaive critisiscm, this is not the right business and such a singer will likely not achieve the top. Every professional singer has got negative critisiscm and constructive critisiscm in some point of their career , that is something they have to live with and the great ones do and they will survive and gain from the rightous negative critisiscm.

I hope, Ron, you are not only giving rewards if it is out of place, but i think you are not because i have seen you giving constructive critisiscm in my posts for example. Especially when it comes to this forum i think the best way is , where it is legitimate, to give constructive critisiscm AND, no matter how bad the singing might be, give some kind of reward, something that was positive. I agree that if you are giving only negative critique with bad words, that person could be hindered in his/her development as a singer and it could also go as far as an ending of singing.

[jonpall]

Recently I learned something that's called "the sandwich method" for giving critisism.

1. First you give a positive comment, which represents the top bread.

2. Then you point out a single thing that could be improved (usually the most important thing to improve at the moment), point out where it happened and what you think the person could do to improve on it - this represent the food, the cheese, the butter, etc. in the middle of the bread.

3. Finally you give another positive comment, which represents the bottom bread.

[darkclaw3000]

to be honest, i really prefer negative comments as that is what makes me wanna improve. in my part of the world, the singers here had the worst of any kind of comments and critiques. some are downright rude. but somehow this filters out the ones who take it to really improve themselves, or just give up and become a mediocre singer.

i agree with pointing the person the right direction once a negative comment is made, but sometimes, other then just giving positive comments, that is still mollycoddling to me. i really think the greats who made it out there, had the worst kind of stuffs and just became too stubborn to give up.

and the fact is still that all those greats that we know off, really dont have proper training. they either stumbled upon it, or just naturally had it to begin with. n i dont think they even have a forum to ask around like we do now. in this era we somehow are having it easy.

peace!

[ronws]

Olem, I think you were saying nearly the same thing I was. Like my sentence "The advantage, here, is that often the criticism is accompanied by a direction of which way to go."

Which went along with the later thought trainging and improvement happen quicker when the criticism and direction are combined.

But just the same, the process of reward and punishment is basic and below conscious thought. And unrewarded behavior tends to diminish. If it does not, it is being rewarded some way. Even if it's a wrong thing. And rewarded behavior tends to increase. Granted, there's only about 60 years of documented clinical and empirical evidence of this but it is compelling, nonetheless.

I have seen it in action, training my work crews, training my dogs. And that is sure to offend some. (Of course, I don't know who will be offended. My working crews or my dog. )

[KillerKu]

As much as it may seem coddling, I think you sound pretty close for this style of music, Darkclaw. If you were to use this voice on, something outside of 80s metal (say Sarah McLachlan, Angel, as another poster put up) it might sound unusual, but for the genre and sounds it 'fits' to my ears.

If I had something constructive to say that came to mind, I'd say it and I have in the past, but at this point I suspect you're technically more proficient than I was.

Jonpall mentioned cry/moan/CVT curbing sound, which could be interesting, but a lot of singers don't do this at least audibly for this style of song so it's kind of preference. If you can learn how to do curbing and maybe try both sounds, you could figure out what to do based on sonic preference. My honest belief is there is no such thing as the 'correct' way of singing. Every rule is pretty much made to be broken by someone, somewhere, whether it be head voice/falsetto or whatever. Maybe not everyone's falsetto sounds as good as Thom Yorke's, but I'd prefer to listen to him than a lot of head voices out there and if he covered this song, and made something interesting out of it I'd probably like it!

On criticism in general, if I don't have a positive direction to steer something in, I don't bother. Saying "I don't like that, or that is unappealing to me, or that is not my tastes" is not very helpful for people.

But honestly, it's rare that I find a singer so downright annoying that I either don't enjoy listening to it on some level or don't have something positive to say about it. I'm the kind of person that really loves unique and interesting things, so a forum like this where I can listen to singers exploring and seeking their own artistic sounds, finding their unique voices is very interesting to me. You all put your music here by your own free will, and I listen to it by my own free will.

With established music, already successful artists? I'm more open about being more negative for a few reasons. First, they put their stuff out there like on the radio and I'll be locked into a room with it sometimes, thinking.... Oh god.... Just make it stop, as is the case of someone like Kesha. But something that separates these people, is they've already sold millions of copies of albums, have legions of adoring fans. They have life experiences that naturally encourage them. Even so, if I met Kesha and she asked what I thought of her music, I'd tell her I'm not a fan, but I have no reason to otherwise seek her out and tear her down, personally.

Most of you here, have just yourselves and your art, and it's a very different climate with just a dream and I admire this. Why anyone would want to take someone who only has a dream and just stomp on it, I have no idea, unless they were sadistic. It's not even out of politeness that I like to encourage people, it's because I want to believe in your dream too.