Trying out Angels by Robbie Williams

[Puissance]

I think that there is a little too much tension throughout... any comments or suggestions? Thanks!

[akarawd]

Hi Puissance,

I'm no expert but here's my humble opinion. You have a great voice overall ; I like how your head voice sounds, you stay in tune, minimal wavering,

the only criticism I could make is that you tend to push vowels whereas you really needn't.

The soft parts are the ones I feel you haven't "nailed". Some are a tiny bit out of pitch and are sang in a soft way like singing to yourself, not trying to convey the message.

I understand that this might be due to the tricky passagio area but I can most definitely hear the potential in your voice to nail these parts.

Again, not an expert but a simple listener.

akarawd

[chele1000]

I'm guessing by the way that you're singing that your voice is too loud in your headphones....and there's too much reverb in the headphones as well. I can determine this by your holding back where you need to sing "louder with more passion". You are hearing it loud in the headphones and you think you're too loud...so you are holding back. yes? pull back on the volume and the reverb in the headphones. I would say minimal reverb and then you will get a real sense of how you sound......ie: pitch....actual sound...resonance...etc.

Try it again. :)

[Puissance]

Thanks akarawd for giving me some honest feedback! I will definitely work on the soft parts and practice those more often.

And chele1000, you are right. I was holding back a little because I didn't want it to start clipping. Thanks for the tip!

BTW, do the pros always sing loudly? Sometimes I can't tell how much energy they actually put into their singing. It looks effortless for some singers.

[chele1000]

some pros...ie: Celine Dion have alot of control. Some rockers don't....but remember...they are in professional studios with LOADS of equipment. Use the mic a bit...back up a couple of inches when you are singing louder. The more you play with that with your home studio, the more you will know how to control sound more. :)

[gno]

Sounds really nice. I don't think it "sounds" like too much tension all throughout, but you may feel too much tension.

During the chorus on the e4 and f4 - this is right in the passagion area. This is the part of your range that seems like you need to work on. It seems just a little out of control. You are doing that in "overdrive" or "pulling chest" (different terminology from different methods). You can keep with that, or you could try to "cover" in that area (curbing). that mode will be a little less stressful on your voice as you will align the resonances better. Learning curbing or covering will give you more options and maybe easier control in that area.

Overall - great sound quality with your voice and lots of potential

I agree with Michele. Are you monitoring with compression? If not, you may want to try that as when you go louder it won't blast your ears so much. It seems that you are flinching a bit on the louder parts in the passagio area. that is affecting your performance.

[Martin H]

You can keep with that, or you could try to "cover" in that area (curbing). that mode will be a little less stressful on your voice as you will align the resonances better. Learning curbing or covering will give you more options and maybe easier control in that area.

Singing in Curbing is not less stressful than Overdrive. I personally find Overdrive to be more easier than Curbing....we are all different....and therfore solutions should be tailored to the individual. :)

[gno]

Martin - of course. I was just comenting on his tone in this area. It seems to be a little "labored" and a tad out of control, and I was merely suggesting to try covering to see if he can get more control. Even CVT recommends learning different things so you can decide for yourself what you want.

I'm coming from the traditional bel canto approach and the vocal science that says that the formant of an "ah" vowel starts crossing the harmonics at E4, and the "bottom" drops out of the resonance. This has been illustrated many times on the forum. Vowel modification is a proven way to keep the resonance alive through this area. Without the resonance, the voice simply has to do more to make up for it. It is a fact of physics. Catherine doesn't get into vowel modification too much in her book. Don't get me wrong - I love CVT. And I don't think Catherine would argue that Overdrive in this area takes more energy than curbing. Maybe it is easier for you, but do you think it takes less physical energy?

[Martin H]

Catherine doesn't get into vowel modification too much in her book.

Really?? Actually that's a BIG point in the rules of the modes!

I personally feel that Overdrive takes less energy than Curbing in the "passagio" area.....and I believe that's also why Robert Lunte want people to use the wide "EH" in that area as well compared to the narrow "IH"...(as we discussed in another thread).....

But as I said....we are all different...AND that's the key! And the reason why "one fits all" programs are...well not that good ;)

[anonimuzz]

I'm guessing by the way that you're singing that your voice is too loud in your headphones....and there's too much reverb in the headphones as well. I can determine this by your holding back where you need to sing "louder with more passion". You are hearing it loud in the headphones and you think you're too loud...so you are holding back. yes? pull back on the volume and the reverb in the headphones. I would say minimal reverb and then you will get a real sense of how you sound......ie: pitch....actual sound...resonance...etc.

Try it again.

Yep, I agree. Turning your body to the side would already help, because you won't be blasting as straight to the microphone as if you were turned to it.

[Puissance]

Thanks everyone! All of this feedback is very helpful.

I actually have the CVT book, but haven't mastered all the modes yet. Is twang necessary in curbing? And by modifying vowels, does that change the vocal mode or does it simply make singing easier in specific modes?

I also do have a compressor, but I'm very new to all the recording equipment, so maybe I need to tweak the settings a little. I'll definitely play around with it some more next time.

[gno]

Really?? Actually that's a BIG point in the rules of the modes!

I personally feel that Overdrive takes less energy than Curbing in the "passagio" area.....and I believe that's also why Robert Lunte want people to use the wide "EH" in that area as well compared to the narrow "IH"...(as we discussed in another thread).....

But as I said....we are all different...AND that's the key! And the reason why "one fits all" programs are...well not that good

Ok - Martin you are our resident CVT expert not me. Let's abandon the CVT terms for a minute. I'm simply trying to convey the fact that modifying vowels at certain pitches makes it easier for your voice. The "passagio" area is where the formants and harmonics have interesting relationships giving singers reasons to modify vowels. Changing the vowels changes the resonant frequencies which help amplify the harmonics. Helping to amplify harmonics requires less energy. Steven Fraser has given us numerous examples and graphs on this subject. And he has explained this quite well - many times.

Martin - Aside from this interesting discussion on CVT terms (and I do love CVT), what advice would you give this guy? I'm always interested in your helpful comments and advice.

[Martin H]

guitartrek,

I know that Steven has posted some very very valuable informations! But my point is actually very simple....what is "easy" or "stressful" is a subjective term. No matter how many analysis you make -it all boils down to the individual and how he/she feels. Like I said, I find Overdrive to be much easier than Curbing....some may feel it the other way around.

In regards to advice:

Puissance,

Where do you feel these tensions in the song?

[jonpall]

You have good pitch and feel and good potential! I liked it! I suggest you put more confidence in the verses - you tended to end phrases with a bit of a shy, soft sound. Also I suggest you work on curbing to be able to sing choruses like that one slightly better. If you don't know what that it, just try to use medium volume and use mostly the vowels Uh as in "hungry", Ih as in "sit" and O as in "woman". Also, from the look of your face in the chorus, it seemed like you were using too many external muscles of your neck and face for those high notes like "protection" and "take". Try having a poker face while doing it (even though it might sound worse at first) and use the vowel Uh mostly for all those highest notes, or a vowel VERY close to Uh. The first high note in the chorus was always good - "...and through it AAAAALLL" - that "all" word was very good. But that is an F#4 note, slightly under the passagio. The words "proTECTion" and "TAKE" are where you strain a bit and it could be because you're not modifying those vowels towards Uh enough. Also, try that poker face idea. Just one more thing - watch that your inhale isn't too quick. It sounded at parts that you force the inhale, but you're supposed to just relax on the inhale and LET the air come in and your belly go out. I think you're doing it a bit too fast at some points. Hope this helps (coming from someone who's not really an expert ). Cheers!

[gno]

Ok Martin - I'm sorry but "stressful" can be defined in different ways. You are assuming I'm talking about stressful in the subjective sense. I meant "stressful" in terms of physical energy and load - as an engineer would measure physical stresses and forces. Sounds like we are arguing semantics here. However, it seems I have a lot to learn in terms of CVT. Seeing that CVT doesn't believe in passagio it is sometimes hard to have discussions about it in terms of CVT.

[Puissance]

Martin H, I think jonpall noticed the spots where I experienced tension. When I sang words like "break," "protection," and "take" during the chorus.

I actually practice with a poker face, haha, but maybe I felt like I needed to put on a show for the camera, so I ended up with all those funny faces and unnecessary muscle tension. I'm really going to have to look into curbing to see if it's going to help me out.

Thanks everyone!

[Martin H]

I meant "stressful" in terms of physical energy and load - as an engineer would measure physical stresses and forces.

I know what you mean. From a technical or analysing point of view, Overdrive would require more "energy" or "load" in terms of breath-pressure, adduction etc. BUT as to what something "feels" like is very different. I believe it has to do with what you are used to do. In my case, Overdrive is the easiest mode....even though Curbing on the "paper" should be easier in regards to "stressful" or "physical energy".

Puissance,

It sounds like you want Overdrive on those words...mainly the EH vowel...right?

(An example of Overdrive)

http://www.box.net/shared/tupfjvr1kx

[jonpall]

An interesting point, Martin. You could use the Oh and the Eh vowels from overdrive there and it would fit the vowels of the following words perfectly - "all", "take" and "break". But it wouldn't work as well for "protection" - it would sound slightly like "proTAKEshun" . Anyway, currently I'm at least trying to sing mostly curbing in those big choruses (although I know I tend to fall into overdrive at times), but perhaps it would make sense in some cases to sing some words in overdrive and some in curbing, i.e. not to have the "cry"/"hold" sound quality on every word in a melody in the tenor range? Just thinking out loud.

[gno]

I know what you mean. From a technical or analysing point of view, Overdrive would require more "energy" or "load" in terms of breath-pressure, adduction etc. BUT as to what something "feels" like is very different. I believe it has to do with what you are used to do. In my case, Overdrive is the easiest mode....even though Curbing on the "paper" should be easier in regards to "stressful" or "physical energy".

That make sense Martin. I know what you mean now. I still practice the Bel Canto way, or Ken Tamplin's approach, which means at E4 I go from Overdrive into Curbing (I guess). The fact that you are actually more comfortable up there than curbing is encouraging to me. Overdrive has a cool sound in the E4 to C5 range.

[Martin H]

Yes that's usually the most common aproach. Overdrive > Curbing. But it really doesn't solve the problems where Overdrive is needed in the E4-C5 range right? Then you HAVE to practice Overdrive all the way up. :)

[gno]

Yes that's usually the most common aproach. Overdrive > Curbing. But it really doesn't solve the problems where Overdrive is needed in the E4-C5 range right? Then you HAVE to practice Overdrive all the way up.

You're right - I did practice Overdrive a couple times up there, but with no specific excersize. Mostly I've been trying to master the traditional bel canto. I'll have to read the CVT book and figure out a good excersise to do for overdrive.