Stairway to Heaven

[ronws]

I have been playing this song for 36 years. But I have been able to sing it in the proper range for only about 22 years. That being said, I still learn things about it. I end it on a higher note which is more comfortable for me than trying to manage a 1/2 tone with rasp. Plus, I'm not trying to sound like Robert Plant. I'm trying to sound like Ron.

When I was a teenager and playing guitar, the surest way to gain the affections of young ladies was being able to play this song. They always asked, "Can you play "Stairway to Heaven"?"

"Stairway to Heaven" from Led Zeppelin.

[jonpall]

One of your better ones, Ron, actually! Both the vocal and the guitar playing. I still think your next step would be to get some lessons.

[ronws]

One of your better ones, Ron, actually! Both the vocal and the guitar playing. I still think your next step would be to get some lessons.

Thanks, jonpall. Lessons for which? Guitar? Singing? Both? I can explain the problems with the guitar, it being a cheapie with an tall action. What part of the singing was wrong? I can't do much about the mic, right now. It distorts and flattens at anything above a conversational volume, so you may not be able to accurately hear what you may think is wrong with my singing. But I am always learning.

As for the guitar, I am so used to playing and singing this at the same time that I still miss cues on playback that I wouldn't while playing live. And it seems I run into this on any song I have played for a while.

And I miscalculated. I have only played this song for 31 years, not 36.

Or do I need lessons in recording?

I was wondering if you could be a little more specific.

And here's a giggle for you. I linked this song to another site I go to for fans of a certain band (not a Led Zep fan site). Another member on that forum who has a band thought the singing was fine but the guitar was rough. And, here's the funny part, he thought I was trying to sound like Robert Plant. I explained that I was most specifically not trying to sound like Plant, because I can't, for one thing. Plus, think each person should develope their own sound. Anyway, he asked if we could collaberate some time in the future. I guess there's no accounting for taste, eh? :lol:

[ronws]

I hate to bother you with one more question. I have to pay my car note, insurance, phone bill and credit card bill, all this week. And I'm on temp assignment (it's the best I can get). Do know of instructors in either guitar or voice who work cheap or don't mind trading lessons for electrical work? Barter still happens these days and after I pay the bills, I will be near broke. I won't bore you with the details of the job market around here but I am blessed to even have this temp assignment. I can't even afford a decent mic.

[jonpall]

I'm mostly talking about singing lessons, this being a singing forum, although guitar lessons would help. And I'm talking about improving your voice in general, not specifically on this track. You have the range but need to improve your tone and pitch, pretty much. It will not do you any good if everyone says that you don't need to fix anything if they hear something that needs to be fixed. This site should be for helping people. I'm not going to be as blunt as Simon Cowel but the tone and pitch issues is something that CAN be fixed with lessons and you'll be so glad you did. And if you can't afford lessons (I can relate to that), you can always try to save some cash to purchase some instructional material. Here's something you can start off with as good basics, even though it's not organized (you'll have to figure that out for yourself if you want it badly enough (I did)):

Have a nice day!

[ronws]

Thanks for the advice. I was not being snotty. You said there was a need for lessons so I was trying to figure out what. So, my problems are tone and pitch, which is pretty much everything in singing, regardless of range.

I am here to learn.

[kalapoka]

Ron, I have a simple software that I can share with you, and you can use that to teach yourself, especially helpful about pitch. Shoot me an email at - a.m.fahim@gmail.com and we can sort out how to do that.

[ronws]

Thanks, Fahim. I have been emailing you, by now.

And jonpall, I get what your saying, I was just mystified with your response in this thread. As per your own words, you weren't referencing my performance of this song, specifically, but speaking more generally, no doubt in reference to other specific performances. I feel it would have been more helpful if you brought up the issue in the performance you had a problem with. Let's say I had a problem with "I Remember You" (which I did and think I sucked on that one). Criticizing specific issues with it while reviewing "Whiskey in the Jar" wouldn't make sense to me, unless it could be related in terms of "here's where you had it solid and here is where you veered" if such comparisons could be made. Two me, both songs require different singing volumes, which may have been my problem. I know vowel phonation was a problem, for sure, causing me to breath wrong and end up pitchy.

I'm not ticked at you about anything. I value your input and I envy you having a band.

I'm not sure what I could do about tone. To some extent, we all have a basic tone but I think we can modify it. And I will, in fact, take those in deep consideration and Fahim is going to try and share with me the "tools", so to speak, that he uses to monitor and correct pitch.

And maybe it's a case of where taking care of pitch will bring tone into line.

The only other thing I could ask of you is that, in the future, if there's a problem with a performance, please mention it in relation to that one. Sometimes, I do better with specific cases that I may generalize later. I have been learning a lot here, lately, and it comes from realizing that I can do better with a softer or lighter approach. That I don't have to sing loud enough to be heard in the Cotton Bowl Stadium at Fair Park in Dallas, without a p.a. That, alone, I think, allows a better control over tone. So, for example, your link to the lip bubbles, in that regard, makes perfect sense, as far as controlling breath and air pressure.

[ronws]

In regards to tone, for example, I can do a pretty good (I think) impersonation of Clint Eastwood but it comes from having similar speaking voices. So, yes, there are things that can be done to change tone. But I have an easier time changing tone at lower pitches and not so much at higher pitches. At least for now.

[jonpall]

The reason my response was perhaps a bit confusing could be because it is simple. You just need to get yourself a good vocal program and train your ass off. How can you expect to improve as a singer if all you do is sing songs?

No one can, except some children, who just stumble onto good technique and then they often lose it when they're much older because they never understood what they were doing.

Tone and pitch is not everything in singing, although they are important. Overall attitude, how you pronounce the words and the way you convey the story behind the song are even more important. Etc., etc.

But here are some things that you could improve, since you asked. I hear this over and over in your singing and I'm being kind by telling you stuff that's maybe hard to hear but I'm not going to just think them behind your back. This is a forum for people to learn from. You sometimes slide too much up to pitches. You sometimes get slightly flat or sharp. You tend to get too heady for your high notes - if you studied holding back air with a "cry" sound or a "twang" sound, it would help you. Sometimes you're out of rythm. But these are all things that you could DEFINITELY fix with VOCAL EXERCISES. You don't need to post examples of your songs over and over here. You just need to train. You have all the capabilities of becoming a great singer. You love music and you're heart is in singing. You might go as far as to say that you were born to sing, as it seems to be one of the things you love most in life. But you need direction, whether it comes from a book or a living instructor. Trust me, I've heard far, far worse singers than you. You're already ahead of so many singers out there. But why settle for "good enough"? You want to become great, don't you? Ok, I'm going to stop rambling. I just want you to know that I'm not telling you this to be mean. There are no negative forces behind my comments. Only positive ones. I want you to go away from this forum a better singer. You CAN do it. You have the experience, talent and wisdom to do so. You just need to polish those talents. Like I said before, your range is already miles ahead of most singers. Good luck with it, dude! :)

[jonpall]

And you CAN do a lot to improve your tone, yes! The underlying tonality will always be there, but that wasn't what I was talking about. Having those underlying tonalities there is a GOOD thing. It gives you induviduality. I'm more talking about sounding less heady on the high notes, i.e. more cry and twang and also more right-on-the-money pitch accuracy - all of which can be fixed by vocal exercises. You can rehearse Stairway to heaven for another 31 years but it won't help you until you start putting in the hours of doing a routine from some vocal exercise program. I'd recommend Raise your voice, CVT, etc. I guess that the Pillars set from Robert is good, since people here give it good reviews but I don't have it personally.

[jonpall]

And you can say "(*auto edit*) that, what does he know, he's being a jerk, I'll just do what I've always done...", etc. Fine. What DO I know? Some stuff. That's what I know. But you can also try to listen to what people here are saying, try to figure out which comments make sense to you and which ones don't - and start thinking about what you CAN do and not what you CAN'T do because of money issues or other issues and FIND A WAY to make time to train your voice. And we'll be right here to support you, man. We're all on the SAME boat, Ron - people trying to become a bit better singers than what we already are. Cheers!

[kalapoka]

I agree with Jonpall, Ron. We ALL are definitely on the same boat, and we ALL are learning from whatever comments other forum members are kind enough to take some time and put in here. Some we will take, some we will evaluate before applying, but I know for a fact NO ONE here has any negative intentions behind any comments.

Together we will!!!

[ronws]

Believe it or not, jonpall, I had a similar epiphany at work today, while re-routing some 1 inch electrical pipes for floor boxes in the computer lab of this school we're remodelling. Putting things in their proper place, literally and figuratively.

With my having posted so much in this section, it must have seemed that I was using it as a showcase. In my flash of insight, I realized that this is a forum and specifically a section to post things that need to be worked on.

And I agree, I got pitchy in some spots. And I do engage in some exercises, I just don't think to post examples of them here.

Long and short of it is that I will be posting less. Not because I am afraid of criticism but more to the need to be more specific when I am at a loss. Say I do some exercises and it's not helping. So, I bring it here for ideas. That kind of thing.

Within reason. I did another version of "Dust in the Wind" with a cleaned-up guitar performance and slightly softer singing volume simply to see if that is what people were talking about and if that is the way to go in some of endeavors. I may still do that from time to time. Even in playback, which sounded better, by the way, I can tell that not all of the tone is being played. I'm on pitch, with good tone, I think, but not all of the overtone in my voice is making it through. Shoot, not even all the resonance of my cheapie guitar is coming through. And that is an equipment problem.

So, much of the stuff I put up never received a single comment, good or bad. So, either people were bored or being polite, not wanting to hurt my feelings. I realize that "Brandy" is not "Back in Black" and sounding like a tenor version of Looking Glass is not as important as sounding like Brian Johnson. So, I guess I assumed that there wasn't any problems other than what I heard of myself and yes, I have heard some of the same things you have mentioned. So, you're not hurting my feelings and I do have these mistakes.

One of the biggest things that has been helping me is a series of essays in the main site about using less air pressure.

And such is my bad luck to submit so much stuff before I started any improvement. And, perhaps, you have simply had enough. I have been using more twang and curbing and using more head resonance lately, though I think that is not what you are referring to. I think you were talking about the highest notes, perhaps.

Anyway, I'll quit bothering you guys.

[Quincy]

I think you are on to something with learning to control your air better. Some people are more inclined to being "blowers"...I fall into that category. I think most of your pitch problems probably stem from this. What I hear are air imbalances that creates tension and constrictions. At that point you lose your vocal cord coordination.

I've been working on my support for over a year and it keeps getting better. It's also given me a lot more options using different tones. I used to not like my tone but am getting much more comfortable with it now.

I keep getting surprised about "less is more" when it comes to air and effort. Everytime I think I've reached my limit on some phrase, I'll find an even more efficient technique without giving up the strength of the sound I'm going for. Still learning about this stuff but it seems it never ends.

Just keep the focus, it will come. :)

[ronws]

I think you are on to something with learning to control your air better. Some people are more inclined to being "blowers"...I fall into that category. I think most of your pitch problems probably stem from this. What I hear are air imbalances that creates tension and constrictions. At that point you lose your vocal cord coordination.

I've been working on my support for over a year and it keeps getting better. It's also given me a lot more options using different tones. I used to not like my tone but am getting much more comfortable with it now.

I keep getting surprised about "less is more" when it comes to air and effort. Everytime I think I've reached my limit on some phrase, I'll find an even more efficient technique without giving up the strength of the sound I'm going for. Still learning about this stuff but it seems it never ends.

Just keep the focus, it will come.

Yes, yes, yes! I have learned that most of the problem comes from that. In part, due to singing over a guitar, sometimes my electric guitar (Hondo Flying V jacked into a Roland GS-6 rack mount special effects unit which is in turn, driving a Fender 85 200 watt guitar amp) and me with no microphone. So, I developed the ability to utter a sonic blast. So, I have been "oversinging" to be heard over my guitars.

Now, jonpall says that I am using too much head resonance and I may beg to differ with him on that. Some of my problems, along with air pressure is carrying the chest voice to high. From what I have seen of the system represented by this site and forum, it's about bridging and connecting the head voice to the chest to create a complete range. In fact, the most soundest advice for a troublesome patch, even a passagio, is to approach it in head voice first and mix chest resonance little by little until you get the tone you are looking for.

Now, there are times when a note is just going to sound loud, simply because it is placed right and the 2nd harmonic (I think) is coming into play, which amplifies that note.

But yes, I have found, when I back off the air pressure, the note sounds stronger simply because it is truer, and the tone is more under control. In a roundabout way, I think that is what jonpall is talking about in using curbing and crying. I've heard some of his performances and he tends to sing at a softer volume than I have. But he also has some great tone.

I also sing some really high stuff and at the upper end of my range, I have to resonate properly to get the note out, and so it ends up sounding loud. I simply will not ruin my chords trying to do, say, a Michael Bolton crying rasp at the end of my range.

One of the things I was pleased with on this recording of "Stairway to Heaven" is that I did specifically watch and control my air pressure. Even the ending part that is in the mid to high tenor range, I held back on air pressure and just concentrated on resonating the note. And ended on a higher note than the original because that suits my voice better, not trying to show up Robert Plant, but I don't think I can do his 1/2 tone with rasp justice and I don't want to hurt my voice trying to do one sound effect.

The reason it may have sounded like a scream or "oversinging" is the mic I am recording on. It's about as good as a cellphone mic. If mics didn't make the difference, then Heil and Rode would be out of business. Professional singers sometimes carry two or three mics to a gig, because different venues have different acoustics and one mic will sound better in one, but not necessarily in another.

Even if I were to get software that helps with pitch correction, it can't do its full job if the mic giving it input is crackling and cutting out and, in some cases, is flattening the pitch because the volume and pitch are more than it can handle. It is a physical limitation. I could go deep into the physics and electronics of it but I won't.

In some cases, I have had a recording that just didn't happen as I would like and it doesn't matter how well I have done before, how well I do live and in person, that one "Aw crap" erases it all.

Fortunately, I am as stubborn as a Texas mule. I don't know the word "quit."

And I greatly appreciate the advice and tips I receive here.

[Quincy]

I just read an excellent post by Steven Fraser that I thought explained it very well... particularly for over blowers. The post regarding transitioning through your first bridge. There is definitely a seduction of wanting to give the upper part of chest voice more foghorn power...instead of transitioning above the middle C area with a little more restraint. Keeping good air balance and twang and finding all those sweet resonant shapes for the various vowels. If a person can burn that muscle memory in it would be a major step to singing with ease and power. :)

[ronws]

I just read an excellent post by Steven Fraser that I thought explained it very well... particularly for over blowers. The post regarding transitioning through your first bridge. There is definitely a seduction of wanting to give the upper part of chest voice more foghorn power...instead of transitioning above the middle C area with a little more restraint. Keeping good air balance and twang and finding all those sweet resonant shapes for the various vowels. If a person can burn that muscle memory in it would be a major step to singing with ease and power.

Amen, brother. So very true. And I am doing that very thing. And I do value the importance of exercises. Even after a successful application of these steps, one needs to keep training that. When I was taking martial arts, the instructors, often having multiple degree black belts in more than one style (my Tae Kwon Do instructor had a 2 degree black belt in Aikido, a 4th degree in Tae Kwon Do, and a black belt in Aiki-jujutsu) would practice basics, just like anyone else. And practiced nearly every day. You keep what you have because you keep doing it.

In the same vein, I believe in practicing basics but I also believe in putting them in songs in order to "re-learn" that song. The sooner you break a bad habit in an actual song, the sooner you can replace proper habits. That way, you aren't disconnected between practice and performance. A few times, someone has said that they do fine in exercises but still wear out on a song. That's because they haven't yet brought the technique into song. For that, I would suggest what jonpall has done in the past which is to take a phrase from a song and use it as an exercise.

I still do slides to keep in mind that it is the resonance that shifts. As it was put in an excellent instruction, for most people, the chords or folds are no bigger than your thumb. Whereas the resonating chamber in total can be 7 thumb widths in total length. And the inner diameter could be from 1 to 3 thumb widths, depending on how you change it.

[akarawd]

I like your singing and interpretation in this one, it does sound like you're straining on the last part but it's all been covered in the posts above, I'll just say it sounds brutally honest. love it.

[ronws]

I like your singing and interpretation in this one, it does sound like you're straining on the last part but it's all been covered in the posts above, I'll just say it sounds brutally honest. love it.

During the latter part of the song "And as we wind on down the road ..." I am mixing in crying resonance, a little I think. It may have caused it to sound strained. The last note of "to rock and not roll" was not a strain for me at all. It was what most people call head voice.

And thanks for the positive review.