Need input on two different timbres in the same key

[Enander]

I need some help with this one!

I've recorded myself with two "different voices" in the same notes, but I'm not really happy with any of them!

The first one is a very chesty, powerful mixed voice, and it's a natural way to extend my "normal" voice, but it sounds too strained and "yelly". It wears me out rather quickly (as you'll hear at the end of the first verse) because it requires a massive support not to lose the timbre.

The second voice is more "halford-esque". It doesn't require as much support and the return (low input in relation to output) is great! I mean, it sounds raw even if you're singing slightly above talking-volume. However, the difference between this voice and my "normal" voice is too big, and I'm treading a razor's edge. One slip and I'll hurt myself, which is why I didn't start with the grit, but worked up to.

A bit higher, in regards to key, I naturally use more of my halford-esque timbre, but it's the crucial transation-point (where my two voices meet) that's problematic. I can't seem to integrate the two different voices more than this...

https://soundcloud.com/rednane-kirderf/intothepit (It's pitchy and I don't know the lyrics. Just listen to the timbres)

Don't mind the laughter. I was bored and thought it was a funny way to change the timbre! Haha!

Any tips/thoughts? Everything is welcome, except "shut up and enjoy the fact you can choose like this" :P

[Jens]

Är du svensk ? :p

[Enander]

Är du svensk ?

Ja, jag tror det!

[Jens]

detta är hur jag tänker

Lyssna på denna, hur jorn är sjukt lätt i rösten och väldigt dynamisk igenom nästa hela för att sedan explodera på höjden det blir sjukt coolt.

lite samma fast med kelly sundown carpenter, sjukt mycket byten mellan vanlig powermix och rockfalsett. dem lägger alltid in en massa lättare delar för o få kontrast

mer mot mixbelt samma sångare, också mycket mjukt trots att det är en tung sång

Hoppas det ger någon ide cheers

[Enander]

Först och främst, jävligt skoj med ett litet klipp!

För det andra, du har helt rätt! Detta, förutom pitchen, har varit mitt största problem sedan start, och det är nog som du säger; att jag är tvungen att börja lyssna på andra. Jag har hittills inte lyssnat så mycket på andra i syfte att anamma deras stil/tekniker. Jag har försökt hitta mina egna grejer/vägar att gå (givetvis är det svårt att inte höra nåt och ta efter, men du fattar nog vad jag menar).

Med det sagt, nu var detta en fråga om just mina två "extremröster" om man vill kalla dem så, och jag ville visa upp dem. Detta är den punkt då min röst är som fulast/sämst (bortsett från de extremt låga och visselregistret), och jag kan inte få det bättre än såhär, vilket är frustrerande.

Jag tänkte skriva att jag hade valt en annan ansats vid en "vanlig" låt, men jag valde ju att göra Dio - Don't talk to strangers (som är en väldigt mjuk låt i början) rätt hård, så du har, som sagt, väldigt rätt och de två problematikerna flyter in i varandra.

Väldigt tacksam för input! Jag ska ta en dynamisk låt och sjunga den som den ska sjungas, så att säga.

Tack!

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In english:

First of all, it's very nice to get a clip as a respons!

Secondly, you are absolutely right! This, apart from my pitch, has been my biggest problem since the beginning, and I probably should start listen to other vocalists. Up 'till now, I haven't really been listening to other vocalists in order to find inspiration. I've tried to find my own way, but of course there's been hard not to embrace something if you hear it and like it (it's just been less consciously).

With that being said, I made this topic for my two "extreme voices", if you will, and I wanted to put them up on display. This is the point where my voice is its ugliest/worst (apart from the extremely low and whistle register), but I can't seem to get better than this, which is frustrating.

I was going to say that I would have used a different onset if it were a "normal" song, but since my rendition of Dio - Don't talk to strangers is rather rough even in places it shouldn't, I probably wouldn't. So, again, you're correct in your assessment and the problems are probably closely related.

I'm very grateful for your input! Next, I'm going to find a dynamic song and sing it like it's supposed to be sung.

Thanks! :)

[Jens]

Well as both an good singer and a metalfan ive gotta say your heavy mix and rockfalsetto are top notch. your weakness doesnt lie in these two coordinations. What i mean and wanted to point out is not you copying jorns or kellys technique but rather try to make the same choices

technique is not your weakpart, i see it more like:

Imagine you had this very fast formula 1 car, now your giving the keys to a guy who just got his driverslicense.

Thats how you drive your voice, more like " I wonder how fast this car can go today, wow still that fast!now il drive this fast all the time".

What you need to do is learn to handle the car like a proffesional racingdriver, it will still be the same car but still o so diffrent.

Im not blaming you, im giving you these tips because im just like you in that regard, just look some vids in my youtube channel and youl see lol

I know it's hard holding back when you know you can hit that note alittle higher or alittle more powerfull :)

[Enander]

Well as both an good singer and a metalfan ive gotta say your heavy mix and rockfalsetto are top notch. your weakness doesnt lie in these two coordinations. What i mean and wanted to point out is not you copying jorns or kellys technique but rather try to make the same choices

technique is not your weakpart, i see it more like:

Imagine you had this very fast formula 1 car, now your giving the keys to a guy who just got his driverslicense.

Thats how you drive your voice, more like " I wonder how fast this car can go today, wow still that fast!now il drive this fast all the time".

What you need to do is learn to handle the car like a proffesional racingdriver, it will still be the same car but still o so diffrent.

Im not blaming you, im giving you these tips because im just like you in that regard, just look some vids in my youtube channel and youl see lol

I know it's hard holding back when you know you can hit that note alittle higher or alittle more powerfull

Yeah, I understand, and I agree! Haha! Thanks for your time/help, Jens! Appreciate it!

[Mivke]

Vafan, hade redan både Jens och Max som andra svenskar som förnedrar mig här på forumet, så kommer det en till som är lika bra! :-)

Du har en grym röst enander och/men jag håller med Jens "kritik". Det är ju dock som han säger, andra val snarare än teknikfel. Ska bli kul att få höra en dynamisk låt, tror det blir skitbra :-)

[Enander]

Vafan, hade redan både Jens och Max som andra svenskar som förnedrar mig här på forumet, så kommer det en till som är lika bra! :-)

Du har en grym röst enander och/men jag håller med Jens "kritik". Det är ju dock som han säger, andra val snarare än teknikfel. Ska bli kul att få höra en dynamisk låt, tror det blir skitbra :-)

Haha! Äsch!! ...men vänta nu, Max är väl inte svensk? Fast vi kanske inte tänker på samma Max!

Om jag ska vara ärlig så tycker jag att klippet (into the pit) är lite pinsamt! Haha!

Hursomhelst; ja, nästa gång ska jag ladda upp nåt mer dynamiskt!

[ronws]

Of the two sound choices, I, as a personal choice, liked the Halford more. Though both were good.

I'm not sure if I have understood Jens correctly and if I am wrong in interpretation, that's cool. It seems like he was saying, don't worry so much about whether you are using the same "technique" as the singers. Think more of how does the voice of Enander make these similar sounds.

For example, you might hear a singer and think he is extending chest, whether he really is or not. Because that's how it sounds to you and how you imagine it to be. Perception can be deceiving.

Case in point, one of my recordings of me covering "Heaven and Hell," I do a high note that someone appreciated as a great rock "scream." And here's the reality. I was still in recovery from self-induced partial laryngitis and probably should not have been singing but I have to learn things the hard way. Anyway, my fine control was absent and I still had some inflammation. So, I was keeping my throat as open and relaxed as possible. So, it was me doing an E5 with some errant vibrations that we hear as "noise" or "rasp." A result of damage, thankfully temporary. My reply was, "with any luck and better sense, I will NOT be able to do that, again." It was not a "scream," it was me singing with less than perfect conditions that brought a result liked by at least one other person.

So, what does that mean? That means you can create a similar sound, even if you don't do the exact same thing the original singer did. What you or others hear is a sound. Listening is mental. And that you might be able to have the "chest" sound you prefer but it may involve not "thinking chesty."

Maybe?

[Adoney]

Time to do painkiller

[Enander]

ronws It's good to discuss vocals with people that understand just that! My father believes Dio was the apex of heavy metal singing and despises my rendition of Don't talk to strangers because I didn't sound like Dio. Haha! He even "advised" me to take it off the internet to save me the humiliation.

I agree with you wholeheartedly; every voice is different and reacts more or less differently to stimuli.

Lord_Adōn Haha! Actually, it's on my to-do list for my Youtube channel! :D

[Jens]

Of the two sound choices, I, as a personal choice, liked the Halford more. Though both were good.

I'm not sure if I have understood Jens correctly and if I am wrong in interpretation, that's cool. It seems like he was saying, don't worry so much about whether you are using the same "technique" as the singers. Think more of how does the voice of Enander make these similar sounds.

For example, you might hear a singer and think he is extending chest, whether he really is or not. Because that's how it sounds to you and how you imagine it to be. Perception can be deceiving.

Case in point, one of my recordings of me covering "Heaven and Hell," I do a high note that someone appreciated as a great rock "scream." And here's the reality. I was still in recovery from self-induced partial laryngitis and probably should not have been singing but I have to learn things the hard way. Anyway, my fine control was absent and I still had some inflammation. So, I was keeping my throat as open and relaxed as possible. So, it was me doing an E5 with some errant vibrations that we hear as "noise" or "rasp." A result of damage, thankfully temporary. My reply was, "with any luck and better sense, I will NOT be able to do that, again." It was not a "scream," it was me singing with less than perfect conditions that brought a result liked by at least one other person.

So, what does that mean? That means you can create a similar sound, even if you don't do the exact same thing the original singer did. What you or others hear is a sound. Listening is mental. And that you might be able to have the "chest" sound you prefer but it may involve not "thinking chesty."

Maybe?

Hehe well yes and no, his voice is just great and he is using the same sounds and techniques and the stars. I will always encourage people to mimic or copy singers if there is a certain style or sound they want.

I see all the time people having some sort of fear for mimicing i dunno why? People who are good at mimicing are usually alot better singers than the one's that are not

[ronws]

Well, Jens, I think that mimicking and trying the exact technique might be two different things, at times.

But, to be fair, my own psychology comes into play, for me. How was I able to do the lowest note in "Silent Lucidity"? Yes, technically, it was fry. But I was not thinking technically when I was doing it. I was going by feel.

Did I sound like Geoff? No. Do I care? No. Did I have fun? Yes. Am I all of a sudden a "baritone"? No. Am I still a tenor? Probably, but who cares? It's rock, not a cast part in an opera. Thanks to you, I don't need the labels so much, any more. Even I can learn something, some times. And the voice descriptions such as tenor, baritone, bass, etc., are really only applicable to an opera singer studying for or being cast for a role in an opera.

In pop and rock, there are no fachs. There is no tenor or rock tenor or rock bass or rock baritone. There is just the singer, doing whatever he can do. What is good for the single goose is good for the gander of geese, right?

And if we can do away with the fach descriptions in rock and metal, we can also do away with the idea that this or that sound is only achievable by this or that technique from this or that - what? Can't use a range description. I have just been taught that.

So, create the sound however you can create the sound.

[ronws]

And I agree with Lord. Enander should do "painkiller." He has "that" sound, however he creates it.

[Jens]

Well, Jens, I think that mimicking and trying the exact technique might be two different things, at times.

But, to be fair, my own psychology comes into play, for me. How was I able to do the lowest note in "Silent Lucidity"? Yes, technically, it was fry. But I was not thinking technically when I was doing it. I was going by feel.

Did I sound like Geoff? No. Do I care? No. Did I have fun? Yes. Am I all of a sudden a "baritone"? No. Am I still a tenor? Probably, but who cares? It's rock, not a cast part in an opera. Thanks to you, I don't need the labels so much, any more. Even I can learn something, some times. And the voice descriptions such as tenor, baritone, bass, etc., are really only applicable to an opera singer studying for or being cast for a role in an opera.

In pop and rock, there are no fachs. There is no tenor or rock tenor or rock bass or rock baritone. There is just the singer, doing whatever he can do. What is good for the single goose is good for the gander of geese, right?

And if we can do away with the fach descriptions in rock and metal, we can also do away with the idea that this or that sound is only achievable by this or that technique from this or that - what? Can't use a range description. I have just been taught that.

So, create the sound however you can create the sound.

I heard your song, it didnt sound like fry at all. So it doesnt matter what it "is" what matters is what it sounds like.

the thing is learning to completly copy a singer takes loads of time and dedication, i just dont consider that a "lesser" choice than the one's that choose to sound like "themselves" whatever that now is...

Also you know im against this "fach" crap more than anyone

Remember just an half year back you stated " im a hightenor il never be able to go below c3" now your doing this and more.

What choices a singer makes is up to the singer no route us good or bad just diffrent.

We mimiced our parents

We mimic vocal exercises

We mimic vowels

We mimic support

We mimic styles

We mimic songs

Then we state we should not be trying to sound like anyone else and be ourself.

Instead we should know what we are, a product of our enviroment.

Why is this important?

Because if we change the enviroment we can pull the voice towards our goals.

It is completly possible, and it's what you did... You didnt stick with the "im a tenor cant hit lows" and that gave you results.

[ronws]

I heard your song, it didnt sound like fry at all. So it doesnt matter what it "is" what matters is what it sounds like.

the thing is learning to completly copy a singer takes loads of time and dedication, i just dont consider that a "lesser" choice than the one's that choose to sound like "themselves" whatever that now is...

Also you know im against this "fach" crap more than anyone

Remember just an half year back you stated " im a hightenor il never be able to go below c3" now your doing this and more.

What choices a singer makes is up to the singer no route us good or bad just diffrent.

We mimiced our parents

We mimic vocal exercises

We mimic vowels

We mimic support

We mimic styles

We mimic songs

Then we state we should not be trying to sound like anyone else and be ourself.

Instead we should know what we are, a product of our enviroment.

Why is this important?

Because if we change the enviroment we can pull the voice towards our goals.

It is completly possible, and it's what you did... You didnt stick with the "im a tenor cant hit lows" and that gave you results.

Actually, I am agreeing with you, Jens, believe it or not. And for me to do that meant to let go of range descriptions, technique, whatever goosenfrabe (I just love that word and will never, ever let it go) and just go for the song. And I have you to thank.

Go for the note, go for the sound.

One proviso, I feel most comfortable when I don't care if I sound like the original singer, or not. I did that song because I really wanted to do that song and make that note happen, however I could make it happen.

And I value the individual voice. Who does Geoff Tate sound like? Do you think he cares who he sounds like? What if I could spend the next 5 years somehow molding my voice to sound just like his? Then what? Then I am the guy, Ron, from Texas, who might could make it in a Queensryche tribute band because I would "sound like" Geoff Tate.

Funny thing is, the singer I have been compared more often than others, I am not all that interested in being a tribute to him, no matter how good his singing is. My gargantuan ego gets in the way.

And we seemed to have drifted from Enander's original point of the thread. To feed my ego, so huge, it has its own zip code. I am the most mental of all.

Excellent post, Jens.

[MDEW]

I am a product of the 70's. I cut my teeth on Lynyrd Skynyrd, Blackfoot,Dooby Brothers, SteppenWolf and Folk songs. Trying to sing those styles and mimic those sounds never worked. I am a 50 year old hillbilly.

I just found out today that my voice works better singing in the style of Bruno Mars. I have no trouble singing past passagio into headvoice and keeping a deep connection. Whats my point? 30 years of banging my head trying to sing southern rock and making no progress to trying something I would never sing on my own and making progress by accident. Maybe after singing Bruno for a week I will be able to add the proper distortions or proper resonant shifts needed for singing the songs that really inspire me.

[Jens]

Well this is also a part of my theory about this, sometimes mimicing the sound is not enough. What do we do? lol il probably write a book about this someday.

Our voice reflects who we are and who we choose to be, our personalities is also reflected in our voice.

There is soo mich we can change and experiment with, just to get closer to our desired sound.

One if the true keys to minic a sound is understanding what type of person the one your trying to mimic is. Lets say your a supershy guy with a good voice wanting to sing dio, you think that will work out? No enviroment has to change and character needs to be changed.

[MDEW]

Well this is also a part of my theory about this, sometimes mimicing the sound is not enough. What do we do? lol il probably write a book about this someday.

Our voice reflects who we are and who we choose to be, our personalities is also reflected in our voice.

There is soo mich we can change and experiment with, just to get closer to our desired sound.

One if the true keys to minic a sound is understanding what type of person the one your trying to mimic is. Lets say your a supershy guy with a good voice wanting to sing dio, you think that will work out? No enviroment has to change and character needs to be changed.

I agree. If you are to mimic a certain persons voice you must also mimic their movement and expression and their energy and personality. All of this playes a part. There is also things that are going on inside that we cannot see. That is part of intuition.

I am an introvert. I do not have the attitude for the Southern Rock. At this point. The songs that I know that I can nail every time. I can get all in your face and rock them out. But When I am shakey on whether I can sing it or not it will fall apart. But once the confidence in the higher pitches grow, so will my attitude towards singing in general.

[Owen Korzec]

People who are good at mimicing are usually alot better singers than the one's that are not

Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkf9nV1NEeE

Start at 0:58 if you want to skip the intro

[ronws]

I agree Jens and MDEW.

And M, we likee very much Blackfoot around here. Especially their most well-known song, "Train."

Emulate this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUsxDfAaOfc

[MDEW]

Love that song Ronws. Thats an A4 in "(A4)Lord, (G4)leave me wnen you (E4)can" I wimp out on Lord. I can sing A4 just fine sounding like Bruno mars but it is not big and thick enough for this.

[ronws]

M, I'm so glad I have a "brother" in the southern fried rock "genre."

[Gneetapp]

I really like that song too! But I just learned it was not from Warrant!! :lol: