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:D I can see how it may sound like that. But it isn't. But it is about finding yourself "by yourself." If you look to use your instructor as a crutch your journey goes off course. There is a traditional way of teaching (in Old Okinawa you needed a letter of recommendation and even then you could be turned away after interviewing with the instructor. Some dojo are still run that way. It's about mindset) and then there is the new fangled treat everyone kindly method. That is about money. But that is " Traditional karate." That is a way of life mixed with self defense. That isn't sport and it isn't about winning a trophy. It is about finding your inner self which is a self journey. A strong mindset is needed there and the weak don't make it. I was trained by Japanese and at times Okinawan instructors. I trained before they used safety equipment and had bathroom breaks or were allowed to ask "can I get a drink of water." It's all about hardships. But the point is there isn't any hand holding. But like I said that is the traditional stuff. MMA or boxing or Muay Thai are different. Those are about winning and for that it is a whole different ballgame and that is even worse as far as "can you hack it." That is about winning and winning in a time frame of a bout. No giving up with 10 seconds left in a round. Inner strength is what gets you through life. You can be guided but it is really self development. Not hugs and stroking. When I teach traditional martial arts it isn't about winning. It is about not losing and developing the mind through hardship. You can train with me and not want to fight. Train only for self development and that is fine. As long as you continuously show development and a will to push forward. But that is still hard training and no one will baby you. You basically teach yourself with my guidance. You joke about it but the "karate kid" points at this in a "movie way." Cobra Kai were just bullies. But you think it is fun for Daniel washing a crap load of cars? Or painting all that fence or sanding all that decking? Hardships. That builds character. If you can't hack it you lose. If he complained he would have been sent home. But they don't show that because then you have no movie But again, there is no time for those who wish to ride coat tails. You don't develop the inner strength by someone else doing the work. if you choose the self defense aspects of traditional training that is very hard because it has to be realistic otherwise you are setting yourself up for trouble in a real situation. The guy with the busted rib sounds harsh. But he "thought" he could cope. He could not and inside himself was his own bad news. Once he saw that it really takes much more than he was willing to give of himself to actually train and move forward. His own fears broke his rib. I didn't do it on purpose. But it was at that point I told him to go. Rethink. This isn't your thing man. You're 12 years younger than me you are unwilling to condition your mind to push ahead when the going gets tough. You want rest and water breaks. Real life doesn't allow that.

Ok, get ready to throw stones at me but here is my harsh take. I will say that due to the new and seemingly more popular way of treating everyone with a gentle hand, I am taking a step back and reviewing my own ways lest I be cast out as a bad person. I am not, I am just old school. But up until recently this has been my way. I am not completely out of this way yet...I admit. Here goes. I have taught martial arts for the last 23 years. I have also coached MMA fighters and some boxers for the last 5 years. I have recently stopped teaching accept for the occasional stand in for someone that may need me to fill in while they are away or something. But basically I stay away and do my own thing. Why? Because everyone these days are coddled and babied for fear of hurting feelings or causing people to quit much like has been discussed here. I had to teach two karate classes tonight as a favor to the owners of the gym where I train for free. I train there for free with the agreement that I will stand in if needed in the karate class or coach the MMA fighters. When I look around the class I keep my composure but if it were my class no one would be wearing a colored belt. They would all be wearing white belts (the beginner rank). I have had a black belt come train with me in the past that I have thrown a white belt at and told him he should be wearing that. Even after his more than 20 years training. I have had people I refused to teach. I would tell them to try the school down the street, this isn't for them here. Why? They couldn't keep up. They need to be babied and told "you're doing good, keep up the good work." I will be 56 years old next month. When I have 25 or 30 year olds that can't keep up with me then I can't even bring myself to listen to any excuses. If they are beginners I could understand. But if, after a few weeks or months they are still not coming along well then I have to look deeper. If they are trying really hard and just not making it is one thing. I can deal with that to a point. But if they are just wasting space and giving excuses or just don't have what it takes imo, then I tell them maybe they need to find another school. "Maybe you're not cut out for this." If they think I am wrong and keep searching out other places to train then that is up to them. That's fine. If their feelings are hurt and they now think they should just give up altogether, then that too is up to them and that is also fine even if I get the blame. In that case maybe they should also start wearing a skirt. If you think you've got something then don't take anyone's criticism. Just keep moving. That's how people make it. They don't give up because someone hurt their feelings or no one believes in them. Awww, Boo Hoo hoo. They just keep going. That's what separates the winners from the losers. Don't come to my class with "sensei, my leg hurts tonight so I won't be able to do this or that." Or " hey coach, I had a hard day at work so I may not be able to give 100% tonight." Oh yea? Maybe you should have stayed home. If you walk through that door you do what we do or at least the very best you can without the beforehand excuses. During a recent private lesson with anew fighter and the first time we met it went like this. I said " Ok, lets warm up. " We'll start with 100 pushups and I dropped to the floor and started. He followed suit without a word. That was good. That was a test. Had he said "100? I can only do 30 or 50." I would have said goodbye. You're not a fighter and you never will be. Go home. If my attitude causes him to quit trying to be a fighter and he gives up so be it. Then I was right...he doesn't have what it takes. you need to be stronger than that. Not a quiter. Again...maybe he needs a skirt. Ahh, but alas. These days that makes me a bad guy. I need to pet peoples heads and stroke their egos. So I take the middle road. It's been a long time since I've found anyone willing to really train. I had a 40 year old recently, trying to give me the age excuse!! Me? You have got to be kidding me. I have heart trouble and I'm 55 and my body is held together with spit and tape. And he was wearing a black belt having trained for 30 years according to him. I told him if I were his teacher he would be wearing a white belt. Actually, I told him I would never accept him in my class in the first place. I'd refuse to teach him. He needs to be babied and I can assume it is because he has been babied already for the last 30 years he has been training. There is a difference between 30 years of training and 1 year of training 30 times How the hell is he gonna throw the age thing at me? What!!! Then he wanted to spar. I suggested we not. '"I don't think it's a good idea." He pressed Ok...you think you want to train with me? This is how it is. We sparred. I broke his rib. Now go home. Ask your wife for a skirt. We didn't get compliments when we were coming up. We got "do it over." A compliment was something you wished for and was rare. But not getting one, at one time, meant we just tried harder. You are what you believe you are, not what other say you are or aren't. Ok...I'm ducking the tomatoes. Hey I'm changing. Well....trying.

True. Some people don't hear the good advice because they turn themselves off as soon as they hear the harsh intro to the statement. There can be a great gift inside a package but no one will open it if the packaging isn't attractive enough.

Perhaps this section could be changed to just a place to post your stuff rather than posting for critique. Change the name to "Open Jam" or "The Music Room" or "Member Spotlight" or something. Purely for entertainment (or not ) :D

Nice job there George. And what makes me like it even more is this that you said in another thread: You're not overthinking it You're just doing it man ;)

They say the 4,063rd time is a charm

I appreciate honest feedback if it helps me tweak my performance. And I want to know if something needs work. But I don't get too crazy about it. Opinions vary and I have to take the whole ball of wax into consideration. That means feedback from here and similar places, as well as feedback from live performance from people I can see and touch! After all, singers have been successful and learned for many years before there were ever such a thing as a forum. Most times you have no clue who is critiquing you anyway other than what or who they say they are from behind their computer screen. I've heard people right here who can spout a great deal of information but can't sing a lick. I have found this common on forums of all types, from fighting/martial arts, weight lifting, boxing, health, art, diet or whatever...you name it. These days people live their lives by what is said on forums. I've been to health forums where everyone is suddenly a nutritional expert and they all start spouting the same things. "you'll never be healthy if you don't eat this twice a day." Or take this every day. Or Auto repair forums "your car will never run right unless you have this" Or exercise forums " you will never be fit unless you do this." Get it? Everyone is an expert. Over the years (I have been frequenting forums for almost 20 years) I have even met forum members in person. Quite often they are nothing like you thought by their writing and also usually suck at what they claim to be good at on the forum. So, while I learn a lot, I also have learned how to learn from a forum. By weeding through what is said, thrashing the info from "overkill" types, taking much with a grain of salt, and relying on real life experiences for my main source of feedback and guidance. There are many great people out there who could care less about the internet. And many more who succeeded before there was such a thing as a computer or a smartphone. Luckily here we have recordings on forums like this as well as videos to help. But there are still those who never post samples. There is also skype which is good. But again....that falls into the category of live and in person. Like I said. I take all of it into consideration for how I am doing personally. If I had no more computer I would have to rely on how much people would smile when I sang,(or not) or feedback. Sometimes someone can compliment you because it is the nice thing to do. But sometimes someone can actually go out of their way to get to you to compliment you. You know....when they didn't have to. I take that over a forum critique any day. But if I get a critique that can actually enhance that performance and make them smile more or stand instead of sit when applauding. Then again....that's something. Again, I consider it all. But that's me ;)

I can't say I heard the nasal sound. I actually liked your tone and just the way the song is right now, I could picture being at a small bar with a guy sitting there playing songs like this in the background. However that can be good and bad. It's good because it's nice and your tone is pleasant. It is bad because it is very familiar. I feel I have heard this same voice hundreds of times at small bars with a guy playing softly in the background But for me any technical issues would only serve to change what I hear as your style. A spot or two may have lost support and broke up the line. There was one very near the end. As for the word "water." At the start you were adding air to the "w." hoowater. Also the "a" is too "ah." Like whahter. I would shade it more towards the sound of "o" in "off." It's hard for me to pick sample words for you country boys because you pronounce everything weird!! I liked it though just the way it is as far as would I listen to it. Critiquing it is one thing. Playing that in a small venue somewhere while I was sitting with my wife having a drink is another. ;)

Very nice Ron. But....and I know you don't like this but, it sounded exactly like the original. hahahahah....that's a joke....get it? It is the origina...ahhh never mind :D

Yea, that's what drew me to it. The roller coaster ride of vocal acrobatics he does on this. A seemingly simple tune with a very repetitive line but some not so easy interpretations and modulations, small runs, highs and lows etc. makes it difficult to copy. I want my own take on it but don't want to loose all those little things that make this so interesting and not for the feint of heart As for all your advice. You're just trying to make me work man. Right? C'mon Felipe I have enough on my plate already!!! Good advice thanks. Now lets see if I can follow it :/

I thought your voice sounded good on this (guitar also) although a little weak maybe. However I am unfamiliar with this song so had to look for it to compare. Somehow I felt borderline as to if it should have just a tiny bit more solidity to the vocals. Maybe a little more support because it is so soft and low of a song? Not sure. But overall I thought it sounded good. It seems a difficult song only because it is such a monotone and dull melody. Not really a "singing" song with ups and downs and in and outs, highs and lows. :)

Succeeded or failed...I wouldn't know since I don't know Rob's version nor do I know anything about Russel Allen or that style of music. All I do know is that it all sounded good to me. Great voice there brother!

No problem Ron, there was nothing at all wrong with your critique. Actually I am grateful if you hear something which then allows me to correct it. And as I said in my post I too hear pitchy spots. Bot oddly enough they were on different spots than you pointed out. I am only troubled because I want to fix the bad spots but I have to hear it first in order to have a direction to go in. I'm not hearing it on that particular spot. Other areas yes, So that kind of concerns me. Nothing to do with your critique. Just my ears :D

Thanks guys. You see now, I don't hear that on "since you've been gone." And I listened back a few times. Odd because I want to fix it if it's off, but I don't hear it so now I'm stuck! But I do hear it (and did even before I posted it....but it is a work in progress after all, hence the thread title) right at the first line on the work "Brings. " The line "it brings a tear." That is off. And also the line you like "ohh some rain" I thought that was pitchy also. Flat on ohh and some. So this is very curious. There were a few other spots but I'm working on ironing it all out as I've said. I think it's better than the first one I posted and hopefully it will get even better. Thanks again :)

George, pay no mind to these critique imposters and small minds !!! That was mofo ehfen sonobichen great man!!! Yea, you've been holding an ace up your sleeve haven't you, you sneaky sonofagun. Really really good, and at 2:57? Wow!

Hey Oldpainless. I can't speak to the techniques these guys are talking about, good, bad, healthy or not healthy....I don't know. Too low on the verses or not one voice....whatever man I have no clue, maybe they are right. All I know is that I really like your voice and think it has a great tone for what you are singing. It does sound a little strained on the highest parts and then there is the old pronunciation thing once and awhile (English second language thing) but really good stuff and I would want to listen to more just the way it is now. Well, if I were into that type of music Nice one. If I were out at a club and heard you sing that I would dig it.

The Process Part II Ok, so here is where I'm at. It's been about 3 weeks and I have sung this song quite a few times now....yea...lots I am now getting a better feel for it and the lyrics are more comfortable as well. It isn't where I want it yet and there are a couple of spots I need to iron out but little by little it's taking shape. I'm working on a couple of other songs at the moment so it's a little tight time wise but I think I am moving ahead with this one slow but sure. As I said, this isn't unusual for me and over time I just keep polishing and reshaping my songs. Here we go. Round two! http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=12042426&q=hi&newref=1

Personally I think everyone needs a level head. The poster/singer as well as the critic. A critique or a seeming shootdown of a technique is only an attempt at help to make it better. In many cases it is just an opinion not fact. One person hears something and attempts to offer advice or correction while the next person hears nothing. The point is that if it were a record for sale maybe you buy it anyway. But once put under the microscope for the sake of technique improvement (or not) then it is a different ballgame. Guitar players as well as vocalists can say the Niel Young isn't a model singer nor guitar player. Put his song here (raw) for critique. But the bottom line is would you buy it or listen to more? Yes I would. But if he put a new song here for critique...well... So a bad critique doesn't necessarily mean you dislike it. It's based on advice and improvement.

This is probably about the third time I have posted in this thread and it has been misinterpreted so I think I'm done. Shut up Tommy No I don't like to be crapped on and I do like it when my songs are liked. Hold on....I am almost posting another response here........done Tommy....DONE!! I'll take the blame for misinterpretation. Maybe I am not conveying my message well. I will say this though. When Felipe likes a song I or anyone posts he says it. I can believe it is good also. Because if he finds something glaring in it, he also says it. Or even little details that take away from the song. I call that honest critique. Everyone may not agree with his critique but then at least it opens a line of dialogue or debate in which case everyone learns from and the singer decides if it needs to be fixed or left alone based on the varying sides of opinion. Or maybe everyone agrees. But for that to happen someone has to say something in the first place. I've gotten many of those which makes me curious because they were songs I thought were good. However the only response may have been from you. Then again.....maybe you're just "good Jobing " everything Then again I have posted songs I thought were no good and people like them,so I don't get it. Then again look at Elena House. Beautiful voice but never a comment. Or how about Keith? We all know he can sing well but he has been working on some fine tuning of his higher register. He posted a few songs lately that had he said nothing may have got a "good job." They were good. However, he was looking for what was wrong and everyone pretty much chimed in which becomes helpful. Had he not said he was working on something people, for whatever reason probably would have just said "I liked it" leaving him to think he solved his problem.

I don't think anyone is saying they would just give a bad review as in that's no good or that the pitch is all over the place. But rather than "good job," They might say, "it wasn't good because..." and then offer advice after pointing out what they hear wrong with it. Or maybe in other cases, "that wasn't bad but..." and again advice. But the point is to say it's bad when it's bad (but offer advice) instead of coddling and saying "good job" no matter what. So, sure. Reward the good things, but surely point out the bad. The point is that many times reward is given (good job) to the whole thing....good or bad...for the sake of "positive reinforcement."

I think it's a bit more complicated than the latest research may show. I don't know. I am not really completely sold on the new modern way of giving everyone a trophy at tournaments or competitions That seems to be the new thing now based on this new "rewarding" theory. There is a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners trophy as has always been, but now there is also a smaller trophy for all competitors no matter how good or bad. When I was growing up if you didn't get 1st, 2nd or 3rd you lost! Period. It was a signal that you needed to train harder. Now, as it relates here on the forum I also have mixed feelings. Positive reinforcement can be great I guess. But here is how it makes me feel personally. If I post a song and get good reviews I feel good and yes I want to do more. But then the next day I might sign on and see someone post a song that is terrible but due to the "positive review theory" he also gets a good review. Now, I start to second guess my previous submission and wonder if it was good or are they just saying that. "Wow....I thought I sounded good but they are also saying he sounded good. Maybe they don't really know what they are listening to or maybe they just say everyone sounds good. maybe I suck!" And I end up feeling bad. Then there is the other point of getting a positive review when I shouldn't get one then I end up not knowing what I need to work on. I'm still on the fence with this idea. :)

I liked it Marcus and I think you are doing good with getting the distortion down. Ihe funny thing is this though. I am someone who likes distortion and/or raspiness or some grit in vocals but found myself wanting a little less here. I found it a little overboard (for my taste) But other than that I'd say you got it down.

I think the "wisdom" thing is just a matter of accent. I'm not sure what part of the world you are from but I thought it was accent. In English even though the letter is "s" in wisdom we pronounce it with a bit more of a 'z' sound. Half s and half z. Pretty much like wizdom.

Well, this morning I was in a bit of a hurry but clicked on your post thinking it was a song from you. When I saw it was a youtube video of someone else I lost interest. I just now gave a quick listen. Good stuff. I have recorded this song quite a few times in the last months (the Joe Cocker version) but have deleted it soon after. I never feel it comes out right. I'll try again one of these days Thanks for sharing that.

Wow, how many times have I said this on the forum. Actually I just mentioned this to someone this passed weekend. I was always good at mimicking sounds and people and that's what i did to teach myself to sing through the years. P.S. I guess this shows how much my recording skills suck. I thought the recording was good! I was wishing I was able to get such a good quality.