HIM - Wicked Game

[benny82]

My first test of the my new technique improvements after working with the TVS material for some weeks now. My lows sound a bit muffled which is probably due to my SM58 which seems to respond quite badly to the lower voices.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69231116/wicked%20game.mp3

[ronws]

Good job. And I will back that up with my reasons. Others milage may vary. I know we had a big ole discussion about the dangers of just saying good job. Well, maybe I get a pleasure out of laying waste to the lives of others. (I don't but everyone needs an image, right? Besides, I'm on the highway to Hell. What's one more sin?)

Now, to brass tacks. You were shaking on pitch in the beginning. Starting a little flat and scooping to something better. Live, this would be okay. In recording, it stays noticable forever. I know what I am talking about for I have done the same thing. So, really, that's a recording tip, more than a performance tip. Because you tuned up well, later on.

And I have done that, too. Get into the first part a little unsure on intonation and straighten it by the second chorus, or something like that. For me, it was usually red light syndrome. I can do a song live with no problems and bind myself up when recording.

I really liked the fry part. Then jump from there about 2 octaves, seemlessly. Then shoot up to the top of the 4th octave.

And here's the other impressive part of what you did. You sang the high parts in full voice. Chris Isaak, who originally wrote and performed this does that high part in falsetto. And the original instrumental arrangement was more of a surfer sound, as opposed to this heavy metal grinder. And your high notes are an octave above what he can do.

What a great voice you have and personally, I think it's okay to use a song to show off what you have learned. Of course, if you were to release this as a cover, you would pick a melody line and stick with it. But I like what you did here and I think it's great what you have learned to do with your voice.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Not good.

Chest voice tensions creeping all around, tongue tensions and even nasal on the pre-chorus.

Teacher and trainning. GL.

[MDEW]

:) I liked the song. To me the voice sounds promising. I have to agree with the nasality. This is coming from someone who has been told that he is abit too nasal. I'm not a teacher and I cannot tell subtle flaws. Having said that. It sounded pretty solid other than the nasality.

[mr-leonor99]

as a listener, who is not professional at all, I say that I liked you're voice, really :)

[Jens]

Felipe... I think thats a stupid way to respond to a voice that atleast to my ears sounds extremly promising...

Specialy since this is coming from you who actualy has knowledge on the voice, and can explain and teach...

Training and a teacher?! Really!? good god it's just that simple?! I would never have known

Benny i think youve got alot of potential in your voice that will become great once the TVS training really kicks in.

cool lowend to your voice

cheers

[ronws]

I think you raised a good question, Jens. I had not thought of it before because the advice is generic and I have grown used to it.

The question would be, what kind of teacher? What kind of training?

Just in this forum, there are several discussions on where to bridge. Or how to approach the voice. From the top down? From the bottom up. Bridge early, bridge late. Get into head voice early. Carry chest voice up. And a coach that ascribes to each of these ideas or combinations thereof.

As well as what type of singing. I have had the distinct pleasure of seeing a double bill of Buddy Guy and Robert Cray at the Winstar Casino in Thackerville, Oklahoma (on the Chickasaw Nation, to be technical. The campus is patrolled by the Whitehorse Police Dept.) Even in the genre of blues, each singer had a dinstinct style. Buddy is much more gritty. Robert more twangy and nasal.

So what kind of training? Opera?

Or training for this song? And which version? The original Chris version, which is actually a crooned song with the high parts in falsetto? Or the HIM version, a heavy metal blaster? Granted, some basics may translate across but I have found that different styles of instruction might have a different approach or perspective or language for the basics.

And, if any one cares to read the original post, Bennie already has a singing system and a coach, as it were, by means of sound files and maybe some direction interaction with the author.

I.E., he already has a coach and some training going on.

Is the advice to get a coach and some training some kind of indictment against the training and coaching he is getting right now? And what is the basis for that summation? By what criteria is it judged that what Bennie is learning form 4 Pillars just ain't making it?

Interesting questions. Looking forward to replies.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Jens, and yet Im correct. As stupidy as it may seems, as easy as getting a teacher may be.

ronws, Robert provides sessions, doesnt he? Due time for them.

Instead of talking about technique, time to train.

[Jens]

Im not saying the advice is stupid, im saying it's a nobrainer...

Heck youve got the knowledge, if your gonna write you might aswell sport it, and throw in 1 or 2 vocalclips... Chances are quite big he will pick something up, and getting a teachers is not that easy for everyone...

First off youve gotta have loads of money cause the one's worth having is not that cheap. Most teachers in my area for example have no clue how to teach... They where already good from the start, and they never developed further from that, when their musical career crashed or didnt come they started teaching...

Then you have the Teacher teachers, the one's that built their voice from the scratch they know how to teach, how to build a voice. They usually cost twice as much, and are often only avalible through skype and such, wich also means you have to have a decent computer and great internet.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Jens really, Ive wasted like 6 years of my life hitting the brick walls with my bare hands trying to improve on my own. I felt really stupid after starting the lessons, if I could go back in time I would been trainning way before I began.

THIS is stupidity. Wanna learn great, then get the best possible instruction and train. Potential is not something I can say beforehand. How can I know what will happen???

What I can say is that its still not working, it can be much better, and depends only on trainning. That I can say. Because I listenned to it, and it really sounds weird, the tensions are causing scoops, atacks from bellow, some parts of the melody are not defined and the nasality is also not a bonus.

For some reason you guys think that the world is gonna end because Ive told him that. I doubt it, if it was me Id get good and make me eat these words, which Ill gladly do.

Now I can lie too, very good and stuff, I doubt its what he wants from other conversations.

I dont assume that everybody is immature and all sensitive about a learning process. He is starting, so let him start from a solid perspective and work for it.

Enough, GL.

[Slow Start]

I like how thick you can get your voice to sound on the F#4's (I think that's what they are?). I feel it is more of a matter of obtaining consistency across your performance and keeping good habits up (a muscle memory+endurance deal). You can get a nice and dramatic wide vibrato that I dig. Also, props on the vocal fry! I've never used my low vocal fry like that in a performance before... it sounds rather cool to do.

Around 1:36 - I fear I wasn't sure what you were trying to sing there. I don't know if that's acceptable in the style you're singing, but I would personally prefer a little clearer diction.

Perhaps pulling too hard on "chest" as some would call it around 1:52. Check for lip/jaw tension and make sure you're supporting adequately (and not too much!) perhaps.

I hear an example of what I would consider a little excess nasality words "my love" around 2:05... it sounded to me like perhaps your soft palate was dropping down by the end of the word "my"

Impressive siren/slide to that F#5 (right? ha) too!

Try singing the song and feeling your jaw to see if your lower jaw is correctly dropping loosely down and back. In my case, it turned out that a lot of my tongue tension came from lip and lower jaw tension. I think you might be holding over some of the constriction from your consonants which are supposed to be much more transient tensions.

Feel around your lips and mouth when you're singing loud parts where you're really feeling/emoting the music through your consonants check to make sure your lips and lower jaw loosen up as soon as your consonant ends. Maybe think about emphasizing the vowel sounds more than the consonants.

It looks funny to feel yourself all over your face while singing, but hey we make enough weird noises when we practice anyhow... might as well look hilariously cool too, right?!

Anyhow, I'm definitely no professional... just a dedicated student. If any more experienced folks/pros wanna chime in and make sure I'm not suggesting anything harmful, that'd be cool.

[Jens]

Trust me ive been hitting my fair share of brickwalls been through noumerous teachers who told me i never would be able to sing/let alone sing rocktenor...

Potential = CAN become really good...

The world is gonna end? No mate im not a sensitive guy or afraid of stepping on toes thats also the reason im writing this to you.

I mean you exist on this forum soley to spam on "Not good get a teacher?"? i think thats a shame

Ive been extremly bad, so bad the worst one's on this forum look like superstars in comparison... sometimes words from a good singer/teacher can help loads

But hey i guess our perspective is just miles apart

Cheers

[Adoney]

I mean you exist on this forum soley to spam on "Not good get a teacher?" i think thats a shame

I have noticed this too. Kinda gets funny after a while, I must say.

[Adoney]

benny, in response to your actual posting, it needs some work. Primarily it's shakey, and you need to sing more. Most things will come with practice and experimentation, including better tonal quality. Most vocal things are hard to describe, because nobody can tell you what something feels like; it is, therefore, easier to discover these things rather than rely on people telling you exactly how to do them (im refering to forum knowledge about things like soft palate control etc.).

So sing more, you will get better at it, and if you 'hit a brick wall' then change directions and try something new. That is it.

[Felipe Carvalho]

I guess I am, but its not my fault, better results, better reviews!

hehehhe

Funny indeed.

[Jens]

haha what fucks my brain now is how a good review from you would look

"This is great.

Continue with teacher, continue train GL"

Felipe

I wonder if we should hand ut a medal or such to anyone who passes the felipe meatgrinder test?

anyways im uploading a new song soon you should chime in felipe and pass your judgement ;)

[Adoney]

LOL I wonder the same thing, Jens.

I'll also chime in btw.

[ronws]

My first test of the my new technique improvements after working with the TVS material for some weeks now. My lows sound a bit muffled which is probably due to my SM58 which seems to respond quite badly to the lower voices.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69231116/wicked%20game.mp3

Since my question was not answered in favor of histrionics to support a summary judgement, please read the above. And is the singing perfect? No, it is not. And I pointed where I thought I heard some problems, too.

For those of you who are not aware of the acronym, TVS, it stands for the Vocalist Studio. As in 4 Pillars, as in Robert Lunte's program. As in the forum we are now in.

And so, my question remains unanswered. Is the summation that what the singer is doing is wrong and that he needs some coaching and training to imply that what he has done with 4 Pillars so far not adequate or serving his needs? He is already getting some training and some coaching advice. And this is a preliminary recording, not a ready for release salable cd. In fact, if anyone actually cares to read, this is his first test of the techniques he has been learning. Again, first test. I get it, for some, english is not the first language. But is it that hard to understand? Or are the language translation programs out there not up to the task of translating "first of my new technique improvements"?

IDK. We may, indeed, have a language barrier problem. I wonder what part of the original post led anyone to believe that he was not in the process of seeking training and advice? Having the 4 Pillars materials means he has spent money, made a commitment.

It's okay to say that one does not like the recording or the performance. It's okay to advise getting a coach and training. Is it necessary to say that to someone who is already in the process of doing so? That's the part I question.

I know it's important to point out where something is wrong. When someone has given me an explicit, specific point to work on, it has always helped immensely. But any teacher I have known that was worth his salt also praises the good things, as well. In various fields of learning, not just singing.

And I have been a teacher (not of singing) informally and formally. So, I have been on both sides of the coin, so to speak. And it is amazing what a little encouragement at the right time and place accomplishes. But, unless one has been a teacher, I think that might hard for some to visualize and understand. It's not being wishy washy or doing a disservice. It is leading the way to what is right, in addition to averting from what is wrong. And allow students time to make mistakes (more easily seen in electrical work than singing.)

I should also grant some leeway for those who do not have English as a first language. I was born into it and it can give me challenges, at times. It's no where near as logical as latin languages or even German, another language I know.

Generic as it is, get a coach and training is good advice. Especially to someone not already undergoing training and coaching. As opposed, I think, to telling that to someone already in training and getting coaching and wanting to try some new stuff and get ideas on how it sounds to others.

And my advice to Bennie is, you are already spending hard-earned money on a good system. Listen to the guy whom you are paying. Ignore others, even me. I may say good job when things could be improved that I could not hear, for example.

[Guest]

haha what fucks my brain now is how a good review from you would look

C'mon now You've been here a long time, I'm sure you've seen good reviews by Felipe. I know I have and I've been here less than a year. Actually I think my very first song post got a good review from him but it was almost a year ago so I'm not absolutely sure.

So it seems to me it is not good to give bad critiques to singing but ok to give bad critiques on critiquing? :D

[Felipe Carvalho]

I dont see how you can imply such things, obviously results that are not yet on a good stage can not be blamed on methods, specially if he began working.

Still, since histrionics and summary judgement are the cool words now, and english barriers do not exist, only a very short desire to read walls of obtuse text, this very same person was on the technique forum arguing, considering, wondering about the beauty of each methods, how the "belted" quality can be perceived and bla bla bla. The result shows clearly that he still does not have the skill to even understand those ideas.

So yes I am saying: teacher and train. And this applies to you too rowns. Teacher and train. If the person of trust is Robert, then thats it, book sessions, and train.

Whatever you think that this implies, what I "imply" is only that the result being presented is not good.

Now thats me and my opinion, my background and the results I show are the only things supporting it. I wont "dissect" what was done in terms of pitch or whatever, its enough as it is. It would be wise to listen, but thats not my choice or my problem.

[Jens]

Aww Tommy you shoot me in the heart! All the bad things im trying to save singers from on this forum im actualy doing to you "bad critiquers" youve just made me a hypocrite

Yes ofc ive seen good reviews and posts by Felipe, he can post very educational stuff ive learned a thing or two. Mainly my point is he actualy knows stuff to help people, why not share instead of pointing finger

Train and get a teacher is not a tip... It's an universal rule you can apply to everysinger in the entire world...

Comeon isnt his calibre way beyond THAT?

[ronws]

I dont see how you can imply such things, obviously results that are not yet on a good stage can not be blamed on methods, specially if he began working.

Still, since histrionics and summary judgement are the cool words now, and english barriers do not exist, only a very short desire to read walls of obtuse text, this very same person was on the technique forum arguing, considering, wondering about the beauty of each methods, how the "belted" quality can be perceived and bla bla bla. The result shows clearly that he still does not have the skill to even understand those ideas.

So yes I am saying: teacher and train. And this applies to you too rowns. Teacher and train. If the person of trust is Robert, then thats it, book sessions, and train.

Whatever you think that this implies, what I "imply" is only that the result being presented is not good.

Now thats me and my opinion, my background and the results I show are the only things supporting it. I wont "dissect" what was done in terms of pitch or whatever, its enough as it is. It would be wise to listen, but thats not my choice or my problem.

Looks like I hit a nerve.

Good job, Felipe.

[Guest]

All the bad things im trying to save singers from on this forum im actualy doing to you "bad critiquers"...

Hey now wait a minute there hombre!! "You bad critiquers?"

Don't lump me in with the bad critics. I think my critiques have been fair and have contained equal parts of good and bad. Not to mention constructive criticism and advise, to the best of my ability.

[Jens]

Man chill I was being ironic i think your critiques good, and felipes to when he doesnt give nobrainers ;)